# Save the guns law: What's the point? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016 "2013-09-04T19:15:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/121 "2013-09-12T01:13:39Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > gun control advocates are not nearly so open about their true motives, but they are not nearly as far removed from their predecessors as they wish to have us believe. I know you can’t find a way to believe it, but it’s true: We’re mainly in favor of fewer people getting killed. It’s that simple. Really. It isn’t hidden at all. Now: Are you sure there are no other rights on the part of any other people that you need to take into consideration? Any at all? ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Blaylock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_blaylock/32/3235_2.png) [@Bob\_Blaylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Blaylock)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/122 "2013-09-12T01:19:43Z")
_“To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them…”_ — Richard Henry Lee When I was in high school, I participated in the JROTC program. In connection therewith, I was given very good gun safety and marksmanship training. I would be very much in favor of making such training part of every standard high school curriculum. I believe it to be a very, very good thing for everyone to be trained in the safe and proper handling and use of firearms. If this were a part of standard schooling, then every adult could be presumed to have had this training,and to be qualified to possess a firearm. The objection to tying the right to keep and bear arms, in the manner that you advocate, to a mandatory training course, is that there is too much potential for abuse; to make this training difficult or expensive to obtain, to make the test unreasonably difficult to pass, for the purpose of selectively denying this right. I am solidly opposed to allowing it any power that can be abused for the purpose of denying the right to keep and bear arms right to anyone; for government has very solidly and undeniably proven that it absolutely will abuse any such power. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Blaylock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_blaylock/32/3235_2.png) [@Bob\_Blaylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Blaylock)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/123 "2013-09-12T01:22:19Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I know you can’t find a way to believe it, but it’s true: We’re mainly in favor of fewer people getting killed. It’s that simple. Really. It isn’t hidden at all. > > Now: Are you sure there are no other rights on the part of any other people that you need to take into consideration? Any at all? You’re not fooling anyone anymore. You’re in favor of protecting criminals and tyrants, not honest citizens. This is the only reason why you support restrictions which only impair honest citizens form exercising their Second Amendment rights, while leaving criminals and tyrants unimpaired. Please spare me the lies. It is obvious whose side you are on. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/124 "2013-09-12T08:00:04Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Come on now. :rolleyes: > > Come on now. :rolleyes: The safety training would be for the dumbass killers, not the criminal ones. Surely you don’t deny they exist. Or do you? Wow. Just wow. The rare occurrence of dumb asses who blow a hole in their foot or accidentally shoot their slack jaw friend is your argument for stricter gun control? I wouldn’t know as you have provided absolutely no cite for your ridiculous position. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The sky is blue and the water is wet.:rolleyes: And you’re completely full of shit! Trust me! ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/125 "2013-09-12T13:50:16Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You are actually \*opposed \*to requiring safety training as a condition of possessing an instrument capable of causing death, meaning you’re in favor of allowing people to get killed out of stupidity, just because of some boogeyman you’ve created for the purpose of being scared of. Infuckingcredible. I’m also opposed to requiring safety training as a condition of possessing baseball bats, golf clubs, KNIVES(!), etc. I don’t _like_ that people die from accidents and misuse of these items, but I’d rather accept that occasional occurence than have to sit through an 8-hour government safety training before getting my new set of kitchen knives. ---
**Author:** ![Dyno\_Ram](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@Dyno\_Ram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dyno_Ram)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/126 "2013-09-12T16:32:42Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m also opposed to requiring safety training as a condition of possessing baseball bats, golf clubs, KNIVES(!), etc. I don’t _like_ that people die from accidents and misuse of these items, but I’d rather accept that occasional occurence than have to sit through an 8-hour government safety training before getting my new set of kitchen knives. Let’s not forget cell phones, pharmaceutical drugs and pretty much everything that could potentially be fatal. > [@](#): > > In 2011, 3,331 people were killed in crashes involving a distracted driver, compared to 3,267 in 2010. An additional, 387,000 people were injured in motor vehicle crashes involving a distracted driver in 2011, compared to 416,000 people injured in 2010.] - _CDC_ > [@](#): > > Unintentional Deaths and Injuries > In 2010, unintentional firearm injuries caused the deaths of 606 people - _Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence_ ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/127 "2013-09-12T16:48:51Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > You’re not fooling anyone anymore. You’re welcome to invent whatever you want to believe. You’re not welcome to have your invented beliefs accepted by others. You have no hope of that if you’re going to claim: > [@](#): > > You’re in favor of protecting criminals and tyrants, not honest citizens. I’d laugh if I didn’t think you were serious. It really is all about keeping people from being killed. Really. Your inability to comprehend that point, much less its importance, is a sign of being most appropriately engaged with soothing pats on the head. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/128 "2013-09-12T16:52:04Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Wow. Just wow. > > The rare occurrence of dumb asses who blow a hole in their foot or accidentally shoot their slack jaw friend is your argument for stricter gun control? You’re dismissing those real instances as less important than your desire to avoid _safety training_. :rolleyes: Yes, really. > [@](#): > > And you’re completely full of shit! Trust me! 😛 When you have an actual thought to offer, do come back. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/129 "2013-09-12T17:24:29Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > I am solidly opposed to allowing it any power that can be abused for the purpose of denying the right to keep and bear arms right to anyone; for government has very solidly and undeniably proven that it absolutely will abuse any such power. Please give an instance of what you consider a use of it that is not an abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Lion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/57b2e6/32.png) [@Lion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lion)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/130 "2013-09-12T17:50:43Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It really is all about keeping people from being killed. Really. Your inability to comprehend that point, much less its importance, is a sign of being most appropriately engaged with soothing pats on the head. Right, it’s all about preventing people from being killed. Until the training becomes expensive. And takes weeks. Then months. Soon, thousands of dollars and months of waiting will be required to obtain a gun. Not to mention the background checks, licensing and other forms of red tape that gun control advocates will demand. It’s de facto gun control, started as an innocuous proposal to “prevent deaths” (what a noble idea!) and quickly abused to oppress gun owners. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/131 "2013-09-12T18:20:21Z")
> [@Lion](#): > > Ri > Until the training becomes expensive. And takes weeks. Then months. I refer to my previous comments about imagination. :rolleyes: And to my previous comments about the relative importance of “gun owners’ rights” and _people getting killed._ :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/132 "2013-09-12T18:22:54Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Please give an instance of what you consider a use of it that is not an abuse. I can give you a clear-cut example of what I consider an abuse: Washington, DC and the hoops they make people jump through to own a gun. They seem punitive to me. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/133 "2013-09-12T18:33:29Z")
> [@Lion](#): > > Until the training becomes expensive. And takes weeks. Then months. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > I refer to my previous comments about imagination. The first time they tried to get concealed carry passed in Wisconsin it would have taken 9 weeks of training to be eligible for a permit. Then the state had 3 more months to grant the permit after the training was completed. 5 1/2 months sounds like “weeks and months” to me. Luckily saner heads prevailed. Now very little training is required (almost none) and the state has had no major issues because of it. Going on 32 years on the job in a major metropolitan area and I’ve yet to be at a shooting scene where the decision was the crime wouldn’t have happened had more gun training been required.:rolleyes: But by all means, feel free to peddle your delusions. They are entertaining even if ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/134 "2013-09-12T18:42:05Z")
Or, as Homer put it: “_Five days_? But I’m angry _now_!” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/135 "2013-09-12T19:24:52Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Going on 32 years on the job in a major metropolitan area and I’ve yet to be at a shooting scene where the decision was the crime wouldn’t have happened had more gun training been required. Ever been to one where the decision was the crime would not have happened if nobody had a gun? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/136 "2013-09-12T19:26:51Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I can give you a clear-cut example of what I consider an abuse: Washington, DC and the hoops they make people jump through to own a gun. They seem punitive to me. Fine, now let’s stake out the other end of that, a governmental exercise of gun-regulation power that is **not** an abuse of it. It’s a fair question, because **Bob Blaylock** states his position so absolutely that one is tempted to suspect him of objecting even to denying gun ownership to convicted felons, or, for that matter, prisoners. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/137 "2013-09-12T20:23:16Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > When you have an actual thought to offer, do come back. This, from the same thread where you had these pearls of wisdom to offer: > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Come on now. :rolleyes: > > Come on now. :rolleyes: … > > Come on now. :rolleyes:. I refer back to my previous statement made the last time Elvis and I participated in the same thread: > [@So if we expect the Gun Rights people to chill out, shouldn't the same be done for the 4th....?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-if-we-expect-the-gun-rights-people-to-chill-out-shouldnt-the-same-be-done-for-the-4th/660627/66): > > At this point, … you have to realize you are engaging a crazy person right? I mean, not sarcastically in any way, but an actual crazy person. The kind of person that is muttering to themselves and screaming at others on the bus. I would avoid that kind of engagement simply because I don’t want to contribute to someone’s failing mental health or be responsible for aggravating their psychosis. Nothing good comes of engaging the crazy. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/138 "2013-09-12T21:29:17Z")
And here’s \*your \*soothing pat on the head. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/139 "2013-09-12T22:18:28Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It really is all about keeping people from being killed. Really. Your inability to comprehend that point, much less its importance, is a sign of being most appropriately engaged with soothing pats on the head. With a hammer, or a gun-butt? ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/140 "2013-09-13T00:10:38Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Ever been to one where the decision was the crime would not have happened if nobody had a gun? Nobody has a gun? I thought gun control was only about “reasonable” restrictions. Oh wait, I guess that’s just the first step. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016.md?page=8)