# Save the guns law: What's the point? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 4, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016 "2013-09-04T19:15:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/141 "2013-09-13T00:45:02Z")
> [@Kable](#): > > Nobody has a gun? I thought gun control was only about “reasonable” restrictions. Oh wait, I guess that’s just the first step. I meant nobody **involved** in the crime, of course, but, looking at Britain and Japan, your idea has merits too. ---
**Author:** ![Kable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed655f/32.png) [@Kable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kable)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/142 "2013-09-13T01:27:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I meant nobody **involved** in the crime, of course, but, looking at Britain and Japan, your idea has merits too. We all, know that you all, think total disarmament has merits. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/143 "2013-09-13T02:20:17Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > _“To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them…”_ — Richard Henry Lee The FFs were wrong about a **lot** of things, you know. All discussions of constitutional law should proceed with that held in mind. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Blaylock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_blaylock/32/3235_2.png) [@Bob\_Blaylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Blaylock)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/144 "2013-09-13T04:21:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > The FFs were wrong about a **lot** of things, you know. All discussions of constitutional law should proceed with that held in mind. If you truly disagree with the principles upon which this nation was founded, then perhaps you should consider finding another nation, whose society is based on principles more to your liking. The Constitution is what it is—the highest and most supreme law of the land in this nation; which takes precedence over all other laws and all other actions of government. Since the corrupt FDR administration, we’ve had a government that has been taking increasing illegitimate liberties, claiming powers that the Constitution explicitly denies, and generally violating it with impunity. This is wrong, this is illegal, and this is symptomatic of a corrupt government and an ignorant and cowardly people. This is what happens to a nation that allows its public servants to forget their rightful place, and to imagine themselves to be masters instead of servants. If you truly disagree with something in the Constitution, then there is a legitimate remedy, and that is the amendment process. If you do not believe that Americans should have the unfettered right to keep and bear arms, if you think that government at any level should have the power to infringe in any way upon this right, then I invite you to take the only honest and legitimate means of pursuing this, which is to write your elected representatives and ask them to begin the process of ratifying a new amendment to supersede the Second Amendment, and to claim on behalf of government the powers which you think that government should have to restrict this right. Until this is done, every single gun control law, without exception, is unconstitutional and illegitimate; and every public servant at any level who has any willing part in enacting, upholding, or enforcing any such law is a criminal who is violating the highest law of the land, and breaking the oath that he has taken to uphold this law. Of course, your side will never take the legitimate approach to implementing any gun control laws,because you know that public support never has been, and never will be sufficiently on your side to support it. Your side will continue to pursue its agenda, never by seeking to legitimately amend the Constitution, but always by seeking to illegitimately undermine and violate the Constitution. But the tide is turning, now, so that your side will no longer even be able to get away with that. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/145 "2013-09-13T04:29:14Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > If you truly disagree with the principles upon which this nation was founded, then perhaps you should consider . . . . . . changing this one, but by no account leaving it, as it is no less mine than yours. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Blaylock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_blaylock/32/3235_2.png) [@Bob\_Blaylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Blaylock)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/146 "2013-09-13T05:09:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > . . . changing this one, but by no account leaving it, as it is no less mine than yours. The changes that you want will never legitimately happen in this nation, in either of our lifetimes. They can only legitimately be put into place by amending the Constitution, and there will never be sufficient public support for that. If you get your way by any other means, then you will not be doing so legitimately. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/147 "2013-09-13T12:48:16Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > The changes that you want will never legitimately happen in this nation, in either of our lifetimes. > > They can only legitimately be put into place by amending the Constitution, and there will never be sufficient public support for that. If you get your way by any other means, then you will not be doing so legitimately. There is nothing illegitimate about advocating for change through the legislative process. Advocating for one’s beliefs\* should be encouraged. Opposing such advocacy where it is counter to your beliefs is also just fine. \*I hope BG’s advocacy loses 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/148 "2013-09-13T12:48:43Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > Until this is done, every single gun control law, without exception, is unconstitutional and illegitimate; and every public servant at any level who has any willing part in enacting, upholding, or enforcing any such law is a criminal who is violating the highest law of the land, and breaking the oath that he has taken to uphold this law. Does that hold for other Constitutional rights as well? The First Amendment states that “Congress shall make no law…abridging the freedom of speech”, and yet there are a multitude of areas in which Congress has done just that, without the law being found unconstitutional: incitement, threats, speach owned by others, and obscenity, to name a few. Must we amend the First Amendment so as to list those exceptions? ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/149 "2013-09-13T15:13:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > . . . changing this one, but by no account leaving it, Just curious. Per this mode of thinking, do you feel then that Mexicans should stay in their own country and try to change it? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/150 "2013-09-13T15:48:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Fine, now let’s stake out the other end of that, a governmental exercise of gun-regulation power that is **not** an abuse of it. While I see room for improvement in the gun laws of AZ / UT / MT, I’d put them generally in the non-abusive category. All three states, for example, prohibit currently incarcerated people from possessing firearms. I’m ok with that. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Blaylock](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_blaylock/32/3235_2.png) [@Bob\_Blaylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Blaylock)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/151 "2013-09-13T21:40:01Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > There is nothing illegitimate about advocating for change through the legislative process. Advocating for one’s beliefs\* should be encouraged. Opposing such advocacy where it is counter to your beliefs is also just fine. Where the change in question violates the Constitution, the only legitimate path to such change is to amend the Constitution. To seek such change by any other means is illegitimate. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/152 "2013-09-13T22:50:59Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Just curious. Per this mode of thinking, do you feel then that Mexicans should stay in their own country and try to change it? [shrug] That depends on whether one’s first priority is changing one’s own country or seeking economic opportunity. Certainly a Mexican who leaves Mexico can’t affect its politics much. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2013, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/153 "2013-09-13T23:02:21Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > Where the change in question violates the Constitution, the only legitimate path to such change is to amend the Constitution. To seek such change by any other means is illegitimate. It is **perfectly** legitimate to argue for a narrow reading of the 2nd Amendment in the courts; and whether any legislation violates it is a thing unknown until the courts rule. “Some is balls, and some is strikes, but until I calls ‘em, they ain’t nuttin’!” – Anonymous baseball umpire And regardless of whether such legislation is upheld or struck down in the courts, it is perfectly preposterous to suggest, as you have, that the legislators who initiated it should be imprisoned or impeached or debarred from office. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/154 "2013-09-14T04:22:16Z")
> [@Bob\_Blaylock](#): > > Since the corrupt FDR administration . . . Whatever else it was, it was not corrupt. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/155 "2013-09-14T04:47:03Z")
I’m a pretty staunch gun rights advocate. \*\* Bob Blaylock\*\* - please don’t be on my side - you make us look bad. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/156 "2013-09-14T19:57:11Z")
> [@davidw](#): > > I saw this story today: > > Can someone explain the rationale behind this law to me? I am generally a gun control supporter, but I can usually understand the thinking behind laws that expand the rights of gun owners. I might disagree, but I understand. > > But this makes no sense to me. Why should anyone care if the police decide to destroy a gun from a buy back program? It smacks of gun fetishism to me. My, how the [NRA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#Lobbying) has changed! It once **supported** gun-control legislation! Federal, yet! > [@](#): > > **Lobbying** > > The NRA formed a legislative affairs division in response to debate concerning passage of the 1934 National Firearms Act,[22] some of the earliest federal gun control legislation in the United States. The NRA supported the act along with the Gun Control Act of 1968. The two acts collectively created a system to license gun dealers and imposed taxes on the private ownership of machine guns.[23] > > In 1975, the NRA created the Institute for Legislative Action to lobby for Second Amendment rights as a complement its core mission of supporting hunting, conservation and marksmanship. > > Until the middle 1970s, the NRA had mainly focused on sportsmen, hunters and target shooters, and had downplayed issues of gun control. The 1977 annual convention in Cincinnati would be a defining election for the organization and came to be known as “The Cincinnati Revolution.”[24] At the convention, the leadership had planned an elaborate new headquarters in Colorado, designed to promote sportsmanship and conservation. Within the organization, now existed a group of members whose central concern was Second Amendment rights. Those activists defeated the incumbents in 1977 and elected Harlon Carter as executive director and Neal Knox as head of the ILA.[25][26] > > After 1977, the organization expanded its membership by focusing heavily on political issues and forming coalitions with conservative politicians, most of them Republicans.[27] With a goal to weaken the Gun Control Act of 1968, Knox’s NRA successfully lobbied Congress to pass the McClure-Volker firearms decontrol bill of 1986 and worked to reduce the powers of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. In 1982, Knox was ousted as director of the ILA but began mobilizing outside the NRA framework and continued to promote opposition to gun control laws.[28] > > At the 1991 national convention, Knox’s supporters were elected to the board, and named staff lobbyist Wayne LaPierre as the executive vice president. The NRA focused its attention on the gun control policies of the Clinton Administration.[29] Knox again lost power in 1997, as he lost reelection to a coalition of moderate leaders who supported movie star Charlton Heston, despite Heston’s past support of gun control legislation.[30] In 1994, the NRA unsuccessfully opposed the Federal Assault Weapons Ban, but successfully lobbied for the ban’s 2004 expiration.[31] Heston was elected president in 1998 and became a highly visible spokesman for the organization. In an effort to improve the NRA’s image, Heston presented himself as the voice of reason in contrast to Knox.[32] ---
**Author:** ![JXJohns](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jxjohns/32/469_2.png) [@JXJohns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JXJohns)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/157 "2013-09-15T04:33:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > My, how the [NRA](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rifle_Association#Lobbying) has changed! It once **supported** gun-control legislation! Federal, yet! And they have since seen the error of their ways and have benefited by increased membership numbers. In other words, who cares? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/158 "2013-09-15T08:01:28Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m a pretty staunch gun rights advocate. \*\* Bob Blaylock\*\* - please don’t be on my side - you make us look bad. In any case, he appears to have fled the thread. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/159 "2013-09-15T08:06:15Z")
> [@JXJohns](#): > > And they have since seen the error of their ways and have benefited by increased membership numbers. In other words, who cares? Aren’t conservatives (as distinct from right-wingnuts) supposed to care about such things as institutional traditions and heritage? The NRA was not founded to fight for 2nd-Amendment rights, it was founded for environmental conservation and for training in marksmanship and gun-safety – nothing whatsoever to do with home-defense, nor with the “insurrectionary theory” of the 2nd Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016/160 "2013-09-15T08:55:06Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > They shouldn’t be buying guns to keep them out of the hands of the public, they should be buying guns to keep them out of the hands of criminals. Obviously. Would you have a chart on hand to help them make that distinction ? A handy visual guide, perhaps ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/save-the-guns-law-whats-the-point/668016.md?page=9)