Saving an animal's life vs. saving a human's life

[phantom_lamb]

@Leaffan

No. Human life trumps any animal’s life. To think otherwise is crazy.

I disagree, and yet I’m perfectly sane.

Yes, I think the life of, say, a beloved guide dog trumps the life of a useless head-chopping ISIS shitbrain. I have no shame in admitting that.

[joyfool]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

I call bullshit on the claim that you, or anybody, loves animals without qualification. You love some animals, in some situations. But you need to qualify that to be accurate. Do you love sewer rats? Hyenas? Mako sharks? Hippos?

What??

Did you mean to direct this at someone else? All I said was that I love animals. I made no illusion to which kinds or how many. I understand perfectly that lots of 'em ain’t exactly warm and cuddly, and as such, I’m not much interested in risking life and limb to support the continued existence of spiders (ugh – my personal Waterloo), snakes or other things that could hurts me and mine.

Just so you know.

[bump]

@Buck_Godot

Of course all things being equal the humans should take priority but I think the degree of endangeredness should be taken into account. For example in Africa there is an ongoing war between game wardens and poachers. Many human lives could be saved if we just let the poachers kill whatever animals they wanted, but I think most people here would not be in favor of that policy.

Shit, I’d advocate treating the poachers the way pirates were treated in the 17th century. They serve no useful purpose and are clearly and unequivocally harmful.

[Leaffan]

@phantom_lamb

I disagree, and yet I’m perfectly sane.

Yes, I think the life of, say, a beloved guide dog trumps the life of a useless head-chopping ISIS shitbrain. I have no shame in admitting that.

Well, you can obviously carry this to extremes. Most of us aren’t placed in a situation where we have to decide to save a drowning guide dog or a “head-chopping ISIS shitbrain.”

When reading the OP I imagined a real-life situation, not a Hollywood movie.

[Dr.Strangelove]

I have no moral opposition to the death penalty, so I’d prioritize a mosquito over someone genuinely guilty of a capital crime (I have a practical opposition to the DP, but that’s a different matter).

What about someone that’s just barely short of deserving the death penalty? Say, someone that has killed several people, and without remorse (or evidence that they will change), but not premeditated? Sure, a sufficiently advanced animal (elephant, primate, cetacean, etc.) might well push me over the edge.

[Dr.Strangelove]

@Leaffan

When reading the OP I imagined a real-life situation, not a Hollywood movie.

Has anybody ever been in a situation where they can choose between an animal life and a human life, and that these choices are completely mutually exclusive, and that the person making the choice knows this and has the time to make the proper moral choice?

I say no. I doubt there’s been a situation that’s even come close. So it’s already well into thought-experiment land, and there’s no reason to exclude unlikely-but-not-logically-impossible situations.

[davethehammer]

@Dr.Strangelove

Has anybody ever been in a situation where they can choose between an animal life and a human life, and that these choices are completely mutually exclusive, and that the person making the choice knows this and has the time to make the proper moral choice?

I say no. I doubt there’s been a situation that’s even come close. So it’s already well into thought-experiment land, and there’s no reason to exclude unlikely-but-not-logically-impossible situations.

the possibility of the scenario isn’t the issue. Its an example to state that the animal is the least important thing to worry about. a humans life is more sacred and more valid than a beast no matter how domesticated it is. You can always get another puppy

[Dr.Strangelove]

@davethehammer

the possibility of the scenario isn’t the issue. Its an example to state that the animal is the least important thing to worry about. a humans life is more sacred and more valid than a beast no matter how domesticated it is. You can always get another puppy

I don’t believe in sacred anything. Some humans have a negative value as far as I’m concerned. Others have an extremely low but positive value. These people I’d exchange for an animal. The fraction of the population that fits this criteria is probably less than one in a thousand but more than one in a billion.

Obviously I wouldn’t take it upon myself to decide the value of a particular human, but if the choice were thrust upon me, I can certainly say that I would not always favor the human.

[puzzlegal]

@Leaffan

The implications of a dead animal are nowhere near those for a human being: a human being presumably with a family and friends. You may flippantly answer that animals also may have a family and friends, but it’s nowhere near the same scale, is it?

Animals don’t hold wakes, and funerals and their death doesn’t shatter the lives of their animal mates in the same way a human death would. I mean, it sure is sad when a pet dies, but how does that compare to the death of your brother, sister, mum, dad? No comparison.

Some animals mourn. Elephants appear to have mourning rituals. Per wikipedia:

Elephant cognition

Elephants are the only species of mammals other than Homo sapiens sapiens and Neanderthals[35] known to have or have had any recognizable ritual around death. They show a keen interest in the bones of their own kind (even unrelated elephants that have died long ago). They are often seen gently investigating the bones with their trunks and feet while remaining very quiet. Sometimes elephants that are completely unrelated to the deceased still visit their graves.[15]

Elephant researcher Martin Meredith recalls an occurrence in his book about a typical elephant death ritual that was witnessed by Anthony Hall-Martin, a South African biologist who had studied elephants in Addo, South Africa, for over eight years. The entire family of a dead matriarch, including her young calf, were all gently touching her body with their trunks, trying to lift her. The elephant herd were all rumbling loudly. The calf was observed to be weeping and made sounds that sounded like a scream, but then the entire herd fell incredibly silent. They then began to throw leaves and dirt over the body and broke off tree branches to cover her. They spent the next two days quietly standing over her body. They sometimes had to leave to get water or food, but they would always return.[36]

A friend shot a wild goose once, and he said the goose’s mate flew in circles overhead crying out for a long time. Maybe he was anthropomorphizing, but he thought the other goose was mourning and felt guilty.

@Superdude

But only because we’re “man.” That’s self-interest at its finest. It reminds me of something that George Carlin once said.

But this. I’m human, and in general, I a going to favor the humans. I can think of extreme situations where I’d favor an animal, but they are not situations I ever expect to be in. Whereas I regularly buy meat at the local grocery store, and I’m pretty sure someone killed an animal to put it there.

[Leaffan]

@Dr.Strangelove

Has anybody ever been in a situation where they can choose between an animal life and a human life, and that these choices are completely mutually exclusive, and that the person making the choice knows this and has the time to make the proper moral choice?

I say no. I doubt there’s been a situation that’s even come close. So it’s already well into thought-experiment land, and there’s no reason to exclude unlikely-but-not-logically-impossible situations.

Good point.

[Dr.Strangelove]

@Leaffan

Good point.

Look, I came here for an argument…

[Leaffan]

@Dr.Strangelove

Look, I came here for an argument…

Don’t give me that, you snotty-faced heap of parrot droppings!

[Sitnam]

10,000 animals huh? We talking endangered primates and the guy is a repeat child molester? Cause I’d make that trade.

[Salvor]

@scoots

Why? A human is just another animal.

A special type of animal, an animal that has gained an extra level of sentience and self awareness that is not as common. Human Beings are the apex of this class of animal on earth and as such have more value. There is a sliding scale, I’m more willing to save a single dog or horse over a thousand insects. Same goes for a dolphin vs a sponge, intellect and self awareness and sentience beyond a certain point matters.

[Superdude]

@Leaffan

The implications of a dead animal are nowhere near those for a human being: a human being presumably with a family and friends. You may flippantly answer that animals also may have a family and friends, but it’s nowhere near the same scale, is it?

Animals don’t hold wakes, and funerals and their death doesn’t shatter the lives of their animal mates in the same way a human death would. I mean, it sure is sad when a pet dies, but how does that compare to the death of your brother, sister, mum, dad? No comparison.

Ask my ex-wife; she’ll tell you that I was much more devastated by the death of my cat, Beru (who had been my best friend for 17 years, and died in my lap), than I was when my dad died. I miss my dad, but if I had the choice to bring one of them back, it’s no contest at all.

[phantom_lamb]

@Leaffan

Well, you can obviously carry this to extremes. Most of us aren’t placed in a situation where we have to decide to save a drowning guide dog or a “head-chopping ISIS shitbrain.”

When reading the OP I imagined a real-life situation, not a Hollywood movie.

Since the OP was a pure hypothetical “Are there any situations possible where…” using an “extreme” example seems like fair game. Especially since some people already replied that they believe there are no such situations where an animal’s life trumps a human’s.

[Enola_Gay]

I can think of all kinds of situations where I’d save an animal over a human. The replies in this thread have been eye opening.

[Sitnam]

@Enola_Gay

I can think of all kinds of situations where I’d save an animal over a human. The replies in this thread have been eye opening.

Indeed.

Especially since the question asked is about ‘saving’, not ‘killing’. I will shoot any animal before I’ll shoot a human if given a choice, but humans have the power of forethought and often earn some amount of the crap they get themselves into, animals just react to their environment as nature compels. Can’t tell me in the Venn Diagram of those two eventualities intersecting a Homo Sapian always deserves life more than an animal.

[Superdude]

George Carlin relayed the following (that I got from Animal Liberation Front - Petside):

I respect animals. I have more sympathy for an injured or dead animal than I do for an injured or dead human being, because human beings participate and cooperate in their own undoing. Animals are completely innocent. There are no innocent human beings.

Here is an anecdote from the writer Patricia Highsmith: “Not so long ago I said to a friend of mine: ‘if I saw a kitten and a little human baby sitting on the curb starving I would feed the kitten first if nobody was looking.’ My friend said: ‘I would feed the kitten first if somebody was looking.’” I would too Patricia."

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Superdude

George Carlin relayed the following (that I got from Animal Liberation Front - Petside):

If that is anecdote is correct, Patricia Highsmith and her friend were both either lying or miserable bitches. I mean that in the most insulting way possible, and if I weren’t sick in bed I would take the time for a more lyrical and profane phrasing.