Saving Gas--Why aren't we driving 55 mph?

Factual Questions
81

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Strange, I can get my purchases home pretty well in my little Ford Focus Wagon. Your complaint sounds spurious and defensive to me. I would like to see far less gas guzzlers on the road. It is not only SUVs. I was specifically responding to a prior poster. I also think your 60%/20% split is really a 98%/2% split for most people. Maybe you are and exception and as you have a mid-size, maybe you actually get over 20 mpg.

Jim {BTW: I do a fair amount of carpentry, I bring home stacks of 2x4 8’ long and plenty of other stuff on my non-SUV.}
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I have no need to be defensive, because I utterly reject your right to pass judgement on my choices, and I could care less what other people think about how I live my life. The only reason I’m debating with you is because attitudes like yours are dangerous to liberty, and becoming increasingly common. The notion that you know what’s ‘reasonable’ for other people to do, and which luxuries of theirs are necessary and which ones aren’t, is anathema to me. And when you influence government to pass laws to punish those people, your right to swing your fist is now impacting other people’s jaws.

I’m glad you’re happy with your little Focus wagon. Good for you. But hey, no one needs one of those. What’s wrong with the bus? why do you need to haul 2800 pounds of steel around the city just to move your butt and a few knicknacks? Do you know how wasteful that would seem to people in rural China? Ride your bicycle and take the train like the rest of the truly enlightened. On occasion when you need something hauled, pay to have it delivered. No one needs a car. You can even get one of those cool little rickshaw wagons to attach behind your bike to haul stuff. Not only would you be saving the environment, but the added exercise would make you healthier and cut down on our health care costs, which we all pay.

There oughtta be a law. I don’t like your choices, and I want someone to stop you, by force if necessary.

82

[QUOTE=Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor]
Buy an SUV, & you can get a big tax credit.

I’d like to see the same for motorscooters.

Actually, I’d like to see better! :mad:
[/QUOTE]
No you can’ get a tax break for buying and SUV. It has to be tied to a business and over a certain weight. Lets put that to rest OK?

83

[QUOTE=Sam Stone]
I have no need to be defensive, because I utterly reject your right to pass judgement on my choices, and I could care less what other people think about how I live my life. The only reason I’m debating with you is because attitudes like yours are dangerous to liberty, and becoming increasingly common. The notion that you know what’s ‘reasonable’ for other people to do, and which luxuries of theirs are necessary and which ones aren’t, is anathema to me. And when you influence government to pass laws to punish those people, your right to swing your fist is now impacting other people’s jaws.

I’m glad you’re happy with your little Focus wagon. Good for you. But hey, no one needs one of those. What’s wrong with the bus? why do you need to haul 2800 pounds of steel around the city just to move your butt and a few knicknacks? Do you know how wasteful that would seem to people in rural China? Ride your bicycle and take the train like the rest of the truly enlightened. On occasion when you need something hauled, pay to have it delivered. No one needs a car. You can even get one of those cool little rickshaw wagons to attach behind your bike to haul stuff. Not only would you be saving the environment, but the added exercise would make you healthier and cut down on our health care costs, which we all pay.

There oughtta be a law. I don’t like your choices, and I want someone to stop you, by force if necessary.
[/QUOTE]

:wink: I hit a sore spot I guess.

Seriously MPG requirements need to be raised for all new vehicles. We will never pass a graduated gas tax which would probably be the best solution. I would never advocated eliminating SUV’s, I just want those that buy new ones to pay extra for their “God Given Right” to drive them. However I want all vehicles that get under 20 mpg to pay extra unless it is for commercial use. So plenty of SUV, full size vans and large pickup owners would be exempt from the extra charges. But no sports car owners would. See I don’t have a special hate for SUV’s.

Jim

84

[QUOTE=enipla]
No you can’ get a tax break for buying and SUV. It has to be tied to a business and over a certain weight. Lets put that to rest OK?
[/QUOTE]

Or, as I pointed out in post #63 and provided a link as well, a self employed person qualifies as well. Where I live, this means ponying up a nominal sum for a business license and voila, a very huge tax credit for the purchase of a vehicle over 6000 lb GVWR–which most large SUVs exceed quite handily. Here’s a link to a list of vehicles which qualify based on GVWR.

The real issue is CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) standards which exempt large SUVs from counting toward the automaker’s score, because they’ve been arbitrarily classified as trucks. They are NOT trucks, they are NOT “work” vehicles, they are purely passenger vehicles. Their cargo capacity is ludicrously small compared to their overall size–any mini pickup will kick an Excursion’s ass when it comes to hauling stuff, especially leaky messy stuff that might fuck up the carpet and upholstery. However, since the automakers can get away with not improving the gas mileage of these vehicles they’ve marketed them very aggressively, especially since the profit margin on a big SUV is so much greater than a smaller, economical sedan. Automakers made the corporate decision to mothball many projects targeted at improving fuel economy and have reduced production of smaller cars in favor of building bigger and more luxurious SUVs in order to improve their profits, and have effectively reduced the available pool of choices consumers have to decide amongst. Don’t believe me? Go drive past any new car lot and compare how many huge SUVs and trucks are available for sale versus smaller, more economical vehicles. When you, as a consumer, go to buy a new vehicle you are damned near forced to get a honkin’ great truck in order to get the “good deal,” the “best incentive,” and eventually perhaps the “gigantic tax break.”

I have two vehicles, one small V6 sedan and a full size cargo van with front to back spray in bedliner that I bought eight years ago when I was an owner/operator courier. Everyone in my family and immediate group of friends is welcome to borrow the van when they need to haul a big load or move house, so essentially about six households have access to it. Yet it spends about 95% of its time sitting in the driveway because realistically hardly anybody ever needs a vehicle that size and capacity–dump runs, pulling a trailer full of yard debris to the recycling yard, picking up a new couch, etc. I respectfully submit that SUV owners are mostly full of it when they insist they “need” the capacity of their vehicles–mostly they just like being up high and driving a big old tank around. Hey, I understand the impulse, I love driving my van too, but at least mine’s an alternative fuel (LPG) vehicle which pollutes a lot less than the average V8.

I have no problem with SUV owners per se, but I do take exception to the loopholes which allow the automakers to shirk their duty to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. CAFE standards need to include EVERY vehicle an automaker produces, not just some of them, and a passenger vehicle is any one which can seat more than three people, end of story. If the automakers have no further incentive to artificially create a demand for big, gas guzzling monsters with high profit margins they’ll perhaps be a bit more open to producing more fuel efficient vehicles and pursuing some of the interesting avenues to get there, such as the 42V electric systems that can aid in making even bigass SUVs competitive in the fuel economy arena. While we’re at it, where in hell are the incredibly efficient passenger diesels the Europeans drive? 50-60MPG for a luxury sedan sounds like a pretty good deal to me, and diesels can be made economical even for a big truck–go look up the mileage ratings of the Chevy Silverado one ton with the Duramax diesel in it if you don’t believe me.

85

[QUOTE=What Exit?]
I just want those that buy new ones to pay extra for their “God Given Right” to drive them.
[/quote]

You sound like that asshole taxman in Popeye “Enjoying your freedom and driving what the fuck you want: $15 tax” :stuck_out_tongue:

86

Re: The tax deduction. I’m not sure why GWB seems to think its a good idea, but I also don’t think that people routinely abuse it. No way to prove that either way I guess. I live in an area where about 75% of the vehicles are trucks and SUV’s. And I’ve never heard anyone talk about using this deduction.

In any case, it’s not just a matter of getting a business license, the vehicle must be drivin 50% of the time for the business. Do you know of any people that are bending the rules and abusing/taking advantage of this?

Do you think the IRS might be a little suspicious of your non existant business?

I sure as heck wouldn’t try to do that.

Sam Stone. Very good points, and well said.

87

Please put that broad brush down. I, as a consumer consider my needs and the best options I have before me before I make any big purchase. My Wife took 18 months to decide on a car. It only took me a year to figure out what was best for me. I only went to the dealer to look at the colors.

88

[QUOTE=enipla]
Please put that broad brush down. I, as a consumer consider my needs and the best options I have before me before I make any big purchase. My Wife took 18 months to decide on a car. It only took me a year to figure out what was best for me. I only went to the dealer to look at the colors.
[/QUOTE]

Ditto that, we shopped and shopped on line. Used Edmunds and many other sites to determine a short list of vehicles we wanted to test drive. I am already in process for my next car that I do not plan to buy for another 2 years.

It will in all likelihood be a hybrid. Hopefully a hybrid small or medium wagon.

Jim

89

Going back to some stuff discussed earlier in the thread, I’m curious–does anyone know of any comprehensive study or data regarding fuel efficiency curves for modern cars vs. speed of travel?

I ask because I routinely notice that my car (2003 Neon SXT) gets around 25MPG or so in daily driving (most of which is 45-55mph on uncongested local highways to and from work and friends), but when I go on long trips (defined as “at least 120miles of that tank of gas spent at 65-75mph on a limited-access highway”) my gas mileage jumps to 33-35mpg. From this data, I expect that my overall fuel efficiency is maximized by higher speeds–but then again, I’m also driving a very aerodynamic V4 with a fairly aggressive automatic transmission and can cruise at 70mph with the tachometer at ~2500-3500 rpm.

Any more scientific studies on this anywhere? Heck, I’ll even take manufacturer data as long as it’s in a mpg vs. speed curve.

90

Zeriel,

Your observed highway mileage on long trips stems from the fact that you’re only paying the penalty for ONE run-up from 0 to 70 during 20-100 miles of highway travel.
Were your routine to be a one-minute run from 0 to 48 MPH and then a steady 120 miles of cruise, you’d probably be seeing 45 MPG.

Background:
My '02 Merc Sable will make 26-30 MPG sustained at 74 MPH, but at 55 MPH it can sustain 34-37 MPG.
These figures are based on beginning consumption measurement AFTER I am at cruising speed, and again measuring them right before the exit. I measured these on a 2-way trip over the same highway, BTW.
Around town, unfortunately, it’s 20 MPG.

91

[QUOTE=SmartAleq]
especially since the profit margin on a big SUV is so much greater than a smaller, economical sedan. Automakers made the corporate decision to mothball many projects targeted at improving fuel economy and have reduced production of smaller cars in favor of building bigger and more luxurious SUVs in order to improve their profits, and have effectively reduced the available pool of choices consumers have to decide amongst. Don’t believe me? Go drive past any new car lot and compare how many huge SUVs and trucks are available for sale versus smaller, more economical vehicles. When you, as a consumer, go to buy a new vehicle you are damned near forced to get a honkin’ great truck in order to get the “good deal,” the “best incentive,” and eventually perhaps the “gigantic tax break.”
[/QUOTE]

You do realize that you are contradicting yourself here don’t you? When incentives are offered on cars, it cuts into the profit. So the higher the incentives, the less profit the car maker pockets. The reason car makers offer incentives is to spur sales on models that aren’t selling well. When gas prices went sky high sales of large SUVs and trucks tanked. Rebates and special financing were piled on to bring sales back. When my daughter bought her F-150 she got $2500 cash back, a free trailer hitch, 2.0% loan and a discount on regular services.

92

FWIW, SUV drivers already willingly pay an additional tax for their god-given-rights to drive an SUV. It’s the fuel taxes.

Auto manufacturers would gladly put out a 50 mpg car if that’s what people were willing to buy. You end up with something like the SMART, which only a few people are willing to buy. Even the “great Toyota that can do no wrong” can only market a barely adequate set of hybrids with slightly better fuel economy than their convention sisters. Raising CAFE will only cause people to complain that they can’t buy the cars they want anymore, and they’ll stick with their old, useful gas guzzlers longer. You think Europeans drive tiny cars because they make a conscious decision that that’s what they want? No, if you’ve got money, you drive a full size car, just like we do.