# Saving Private Ryan and the Oscars **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 20, 2005, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893 "2005-11-20T06:36:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/61 "2005-11-20T22:00:36Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > Maybe, but how would that make it less deserving of an Oscar? > > Marc The oscar votes are the \*sine qua non \*of subjectivity (or is that a vice versa?). If I were voting for the best picture oscars, movies that cynically manipulate audience emotions in order to sell a pro war message would not get my vote. I’d vote for \*Triumph of the Will \*for best editing, but not for best picture. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/62 "2005-11-20T22:02:07Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > I’d be surprised to hear him say that too…since he didn’t say that. He said, IIRC, that it’s impossible to make a good war movie that isn’t anti-war. > On further review: > “Of course every war movie, good or bad, is an antiwar movie.”–Spielberg from a Newsweek interview. > Guess I will take that into consideration when forming my opinion of your and lissener’s “take.” Sorry, I obviously misremembered. Still, it illustrates my point nonetheless: he thinks the subject matter speaks for itself, and thus relieves himself of all responsibility as an artist. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/63 "2005-11-20T22:07:03Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Sorry, I obviously misremembered. > > Still, it illustrates my point nonetheless: he thinks the subject matter speaks for itself, and thus relieves himself of all responsibility as an artist. No, that’s simply your baseless ASSERTION of how he feels, without any proof whatsoever and certainly none in the very short quote that I gave. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/64 "2005-11-20T22:10:49Z")
> [@MGibson](#): > > Maybe, but how would that make it less deserving of an Oscar? Those movies which have a message that **lissener** agrees with are, by definition, good movies. That is why _Starship Troopers_ is brilliant, see. It’s anti-war. Those movies which have a viewpoint opposite one that **lissener** holds are, by definition, terrible movies. That’s why _SPR_ deserves nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/65 "2005-11-20T22:20:04Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > I’d be surprised to hear him say that too…since he didn’t say that. He said, IIRC, that it’s impossible to make a good war movie that isn’t anti-war. > On further review: > “Of course every war movie, good or bad, is an antiwar movie.”–Spielberg from a Newsweek interview. Huh. I could see some justification of the misquote, but the actual quote? That’s just stupid. > [@](#): > > Guess I will take that into consideration when forming my opinion of your and lissener’s “take.” Knock yourself out, guy. You planning on ever actually discussing the movie, or are you just here to re-enact Monty Python’s argument clinic sketch? ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/66 "2005-11-20T22:27:25Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Huh. I could see some justification of the misquote, but the actual quote? That’s just stupid. > > Knock yourself out, guy. You planning on ever actually discussing the movie, or are you just here to re-enact Monty Python’s argument clinic sketch? I’ve already discussed the movie. I went into the reasons I disagreed with lissener—that the movie didn’t glorify war, but honored the soldiers involved and that it was most certainly antiwar or at least not pro-war because it showed in graphic details not only the horror that war visits upon the men who fight it physically but also the moral degradation that occurs even on the side we see as good. ---
**Author:** ![fessie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c37758/32.png) [@fessie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fessie)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/67 "2005-11-20T22:38:58Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > The biggest Oscar rip, though, was in 1981 when _Raging Bull_ lost Best Picture, Best Director, and Best Supporting Actor to _Ordinary People_ (yawn) :gape mouthed smiley that doesn’t look like a bj: No No No!!! You totally had me up until that line! _Ordinary People_ is just about perfect. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/68 "2005-11-20T23:07:59Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > And what the heck is with Tom Hanks striding around in occupied territory with bright and shiny captain’s bars on his helmet? Heck, why doesn’t he just walk around with a gaggle of balloons tied to his belt and a big target pasted to his chest with the words “Please shoot me” written across it? The painted bars on helmets were commonly referred to as “aiming stakes.” > [@](#): > > Anyway, _Paths of Glory_ is a good film, but Kirk Douglas as a French colonel? What the heck were they thinking? > > Stranger On occasion a tad of suspension of disbelief is essential in watching any theatrical work. Believing that Douglas was a French Colonel was one such occasions. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/69 "2005-11-20T23:22:34Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > > [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > > > Anyway, Paths of Glory is a good film, but Kirk Douglas as a French colonel? What the heck were they thinking? > > On occasion a tad of suspension of disbelief is essential in watching any theatrical work. Believing that Douglas was a French Colonel was one such occasions. Yeahbut…Kirk Douglas? _shakes head_ That was even aggressively worse miscasting than Burt Lancaster in Frankenheimer’s _The Train_. But a great movie, nonetheless. Just not my first pick. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/70 "2005-11-20T23:24:06Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > On occasion a tad of suspension of disbelief is essential in watching any theatrical work. Believing that Douglas was a French Colonel was one such occasions. I agree. Having the French characters in the film speak with an American accent is no less ridiculous than having the French characters in the film speak English in the first place. If you can accept one, there’s no reason you can’t accept the other. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/71 "2005-11-20T23:25:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Sure, WWII veterans liked [_Saving Private Ryan_]. Not all of them. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/72 "2005-11-20T23:33:32Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > Yeahbut…Kirk Douglas? _shakes head_ That was even aggressively worse miscasting than Burt Lancaster in Frankenheimer’s _The Train_. But a great movie, nonetheless. Just not my first pick. > > Stranger I guess the reason I think it portrays war accurately is the absolute insanity of the whole thing. The WWI French Army’s method of punishing mutiny by random selection of people to be put to death for it, which was true, was one such insanity. There are others. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/73 "2005-11-20T23:38:09Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > Not all of them. Every one I’ve talked to (including my late father). ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/74 "2005-11-21T00:10:01Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > Every one I’ve talked to (including my late father). And no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/75 "2005-11-21T00:15:46Z")
> [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > Yeahbut…Kirk Douglas? _shakes head_ That was even aggressively worse miscasting than Burt Lancaster in Frankenheimer’s _The Train_. But a great movie, nonetheless. Just not my first pick. > > Stranger Yeah, Lancaster’s wonted woodenness doesn’t do much to help an already pretty dang wooden movie. Frankenheimer has his strengths, but he also gots a lot of weaknesses. Very interesting film; an essential in the WWII “canon,” if you ask me, because of its unique approach to the subject. But it coulda been way better. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/76 "2005-11-21T00:53:19Z")
> [@RikWriter](#): > > Every one I’ve talked to (including my late father). Stop teasing him, David. Rik, as I recall, David is a WWII vet. So I’d wager he can point to one such vet who doesn’t think it’s all that sweet. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/77 "2005-11-21T00:53:54Z")
> [@NDP](#): > > I should explain that I had doubts about both the prediction and his reasoning when I heard it. **Saving Private Ryan** was considered the front runner and its chances for victory looked even better when Steven Spielberg won the Director’s Guild Award–usually a reliable indicator about what movie will win for Best Picture. It was true that **Saving Private Ryan** wasn’t considered a mortal lock, but I believe people thought it was more likely that the upset would come from **Elizabeth, Life Is Beautiful** , or **The Thin Red Line** than **SIL**. > [@Marley23](#): > > That doesn’t back it up either. Since they never release the final vote tally for the Academy Awards and since nobody exit polls Academy voters, any discussion on how and why “Movie A” was picked over “Movie B” for Best Picture is just going to be speculation. In terms of the reason why **SPR** lost to **SIL** , I lean more towards the backlash theory. **SPR** had been released that previous summer to great acclaim and huge box office so there was a lot more time for momentum to build, peak, and shift (and more time for people to analyze and pick out any flaws) than there was for **SIL** which was released months later. Had they delayed \*\*SPR \*\* until November or December when most of the other Best Picture nominees were released, perhaps it might’ve won. (But, then again, it would’ve run into direct competition with another eagerly anticipated WWII epic, **The Thin Red Line**.) For the record, I preferred **SPR** over **SIL** but the latter’s victory never really upset me. I never let myself get too bent out of shape over whether the wrong person or movie won the Oscar any given year. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/78 "2005-11-21T01:08:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I agree. Having the French characters in the film speak with an American accent is no less ridiculous than having the French characters in the film speak English in the first place. If you can accept one, there’s no reason you can’t accept the other. To be honest, I think it’s actually LESS dumb to have them speak with their own accents than to put on French accents. (I am similarly unwilling to critize “Enemy at the Gates” for having Russian soldiers speak with English accents. Besides, “Enemy at the Gates” has a zillion other things you can criticize it for.) I mean, does anyone with an IQ above 75 actually think French soldiers speak English with French accents? What does putting on a French accent accomplish, exactly? “Ah’m French! Why else would I have zis outrageous accent, you seelly king!” At least in “The Hunt for Red October” they told the audience, through the little camera trick in the captain’s berth scene, “Okay, we’re switching over from Russian to English now.” It was kind of a neat move. I felt like, hey, they’re not going to insult my intelligence by pretending Sean Connery can actually speak Russian. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/79 "2005-11-21T01:15:44Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > At least in “The Hunt for Red October” they told the audience, through the little camera trick in the captain’s berth scene, “Okay, we’re switching over from Russian to English now.” It was kind of a neat move. I felt like, hey, they’re not going to insult my intelligence by pretending Sean Connery can actually speak Russian. I’d forgotten about that little trick. You’re right…it _was_ a neat move. ---
**Author:** ![NDP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ndp/32/55_2.png) [@NDP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NDP)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893/80 "2005-11-21T01:19:34Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > At least in “The Hunt for Red October” they told the audience, through the little camera trick in the captain’s berth scene, “Okay, we’re switching over from Russian to English now.” It was kind of a neat move. I felt like, hey, they’re not going to insult my intelligence by pretending Sean Connery can actually speak Russian. > [@silenus](#): > > I’d forgotten about that little trick. You’re right…it _was_ a neat move. [OT]Mel Brooks also did a similar thing in his remake of **To Be or Not To Be**. Except he had a voice-over announce the dialogue was going to be in English rather than Polish.[/OT] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-private-ryan-and-the-oscars/331893.md?page=5)