# Saving The Flag **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 14, 2001, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-the-flag/61970 "2001-04-14T17:40:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![djscottnj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc348/32.png) [@djscottnj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/djscottnj)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-the-flag/61970/1 "2001-04-14T17:40:55Z")
\<\< In the movie “Rules of Engagement,” I found it odd that when evacuating the American embassy in Yemen, the soldiers would not let the ambassador leave before they had taken down the flag and given it to him. I have heard before that it is a priority in certain hostile situations for soldiers to save the American flag-is this true? And why such a dangerous point of protocol (two or three were shot while trying to reach the flag in the movie)? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-the-flag/61970/2 "2001-04-14T18:04:31Z")
But the last thing those fighting men would ever want to see was the flag they are there fighting for, and the symbol of the country they love and serve, be trashed and dragged through the dirt. When an embassy is evacuated, I believe it goes from a soveriegn plot of land in another country to just another building. You don’t wanna fly Old Glory above a blg in another country unless it IS an embassy. Bad form. The Ambassador IS the US Gobmint representative, and when he left, the symbol left with him. Didn’t answer with a cite, just a little insight. ---
**Author:** ![starfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/87869e/32.png) [@starfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/starfish)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-the-flag/61970/3 "2001-04-14T19:30:14Z")
It’s just movie plot. The physical flag on the building is just a piece of cloth that can be bought at most flag stores. As a symbol of the US, there are people willing to take risks for it. If the bad guys, with their own bought US flag, decide to burn it outside the compound, some soldiers may decide to go out and try to stop them. No commander would order them to risk their lives to save a piece of cloth. The US can retaliate later. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2001, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-the-flag/61970/4 "2001-04-15T04:23:10Z")
I dunno about that one. Military honor can be strict if what I have heard is true (I Am Not A Soldier) This may be totally wrong, but wasn’t it standard practice (at some point) for there to be a color guard type person who carried the flag forward in battle. Certainly that person could have been used to fight the enemy, but they were there to carry the flag. Maybe I am way off and this is something that also only happens in movies. ---
**Author:** ![Magnum\_s\_Mustache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Magnum\_s\_Mustache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magnum_s_Mustache)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2001, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-the-flag/61970/5 "2001-04-15T04:40:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by starfish \* > \*\*It’s just movie plot. > > The physical flag on the building is just a piece of cloth that can be bought at most flag stores.\*\* I understand that POV from civilians, but in the military that flag is MUCH more than a piece of cloth. Not sure about exact protocol, but I seriously doubt they would have left it there. Look over the web page below if you want to get down to the nitty-gritty of certain procedures. There are more, as well, and some go on much longer… There is a lot to remember. [http://usmilitary.about.com/careers/usmilitary/cs/flags/](http://usmilitary.about.com/careers/usmilitary/cs/flags/) Much more than a piece of cloth. SF ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2001, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-the-flag/61970/6 "2001-04-15T05:05:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magnum’s Mustache \* > I understand that POV from civilians, but in the military that flag is MUCH more than a piece of cloth. I’m one retired member of the US military who’ll tell you straight out that you’re incorrect. It serves as the center for certain ceremonies (colors, etc.) but is not accorded the same import as that of an actual human being, and thus it’s not a good idea to risk life to rescue something easily replaceable from the local K-Mart (i.e., the flag). The human only has the one life. > [@](#): > > Not sure about exact protocol, but I seriously doubt they would have left it there. Time permitting, they probably would’ve taken whatever else was easily carried out also. That does not mean that those items, any more than the flag itself, has any kind of soul. > [@](#): > > Look over the web page below if you want to get down to the nitty-gritty of certain procedures. There are more, as well, and some go on much longer… There is a lot to remember. > > [http://usmilitary.about.com/careers/usmilitary/cs/flags/](http://usmilitary.about.com/careers/usmilitary/cs/flags/) I really don’t place much credence in a site which claims to pontificate on flag “precidence.” Heck, if he can’t even get the spelling right… > [@](#): > > Much more than a piece of cloth. In some folks’ opinion, yes. Most people I know, both military and civilian, see it for what it is: a cloth representation. Oh, btw, I’m PN1, USN (Ret.) ---
**Author:** ![Magnum\_s\_Mustache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Magnum\_s\_Mustache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magnum_s_Mustache)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2001, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-the-flag/61970/7 "2001-04-15T05:29:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > **I really don’t place much credence in a site which claims to pontificate on flag “precidence.” Heck, if he can’t even get the spelling right…** The info was right regardless of the spelling of the word. I found the same protocol on the Air Force official web site and many other places ([http://www.usafa.af.mil/ccp/helpinfo.htm](http://www.usafa.af.mil/ccp/helpinfo.htm)). Which states: “In the Armed Forces of the United States, at the ceremony of retreat the flag is lowered, folded in a triangle fold and kept under watch throughout the night as a tribute to our nation’s honored dead. The next morning it is brought out and, at the ceremony of reveille, run aloft as a symbol of our belief in the resurrection of the body.” Of course the flag is not as important as a human life. My point was simply that it is considered by the military more than a piece of cloth. I think the protocols listed prove that point. We can argue on the need for such protocols (or possibly their ability to be outdated), but as it stands I still believe it is considered to be more than a cloth representation. SF ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2001, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-the-flag/61970/8 "2001-04-15T18:18:42Z")
> [@](#): > > This may be totally wrong, but wasn’t it standard practice (at some point) for there to be a color guard type person who carried the flag forward in battle. Certainly that person could have been used to fight the enemy, but they were there to carry the flag. I don’t think standard bearers are used in any modern combat situations anymore (as opposed to parade ground maneuvers). Once upon a time, such things were important for more than just ceremonial purposes; they helped keep military formations organized and pointing their guns in the right direction on the confusion of a battlefield. (Although I say they weren’t just for ceremonial purposes, there’s no doubt that there was also a lot of ceremonial or symbolic importance invested in such things as well.) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2001, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-the-flag/61970/9 "2001-04-15T23:49:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magnum’s Mustache \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > > I really don’t place much credence in a site which claims to pontificate on flag “precidence.” Heck, if he can’t even get the spelling right… > > The info was right regardless of the spelling of the word. Clearly, you and I have a different definition of info. I go with “info = information = facts.” You appear to go with “info = what I wish were true.” > [@](#): > > I found the same protocol on the Air Force official web site and many other places ([http://www.usafa.af.mil/ccp/helpinfo.htm](http://www.usafa.af.mil/ccp/helpinfo.htm)). Which states: > > “In the Armed Forces of the United States, at the ceremony of retreat the flag is lowered, folded in a triangle fold and kept under watch throughout the night as a tribute to our nation’s honored dead. The next morning it is brought out and, at the ceremony of reveille, run aloft as a symbol of our belief in the resurrection of the body.” That is from an obviously religious ceremony referred to in that site. It by no means states it is the official position of either the United States Government or any brach of its military, to include the US Air Force. Try not to confuse religion with government and you’ll do far better with describing the United States. As it is, I find that sentiment very offensive to the very many members of the military who do not believe in any type of resurrection. Nothing like getting marginalized by someone’s assertions over a piece of cloth! > [@](#): > > Of course the flag is not as important as a human life. Glad to see you recognize that. > [@](#): > > My point was simply that it is considered by the military more than a piece of cloth. And I say again: you are incorrect. Once again, it may have certain ceremonies for which it is centered, yet that does not make those ceremonies a religious event. > [@](#): > > I think the protocols listed prove that point. And yet, that so-called protocol you cited above is not a protocol _per se_, but a religious ceremony that is not required. The site itself says “typical” and does not assert that it is in any way a requirement of the service regulations or even official policy. It merely says “typical.” > [@](#): > > We can argue on the need for such protocols (or possibly their ability to be outdated), but as it stands I still believe it is considered to be more than a cloth representation. What I’m arguing here is that your belief, which you’ve finally asserted as such, is not a fact; it is merely a belief. Try not to confuse your beliefs with facts and you might do well here. Continue to assert your beliefs are facts without valid proof and you’re guaranteed not to. ---
**Author:** ![Magnum\_s\_Mustache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Magnum\_s\_Mustache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magnum_s_Mustache)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2001, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-the-flag/61970/10 "2001-04-16T04:11:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > **That is from an obviously religious ceremony referred to in that site. It by no means states it is the official position of either the United States Government or any brach of its military, to include the US Air Force. Try not to confuse religion with government and you’ll do far better with describing the United States. As it is, I find that sentiment very offensive to the very many members of the military who do not believe in any type of resurrection. Nothing like getting marginalized by someone’s assertions over a piece of cloth!** Ahh… I think I understand your views now. I was curious as to where you were coming from to begin with. The ceremonies often have a religious ‘tone’, so I now see where you are coming from. I was simply pointing the way to facts… In which these protocols were carried out and the flag was a center of attention and importance. If I seemed to push any beliefs in simply relaying this info, it was not intentional. It’s not what I ‘wish to be true’… I did not write the protocol, I just linked to it for all to see. You are right that I _personally_ have that belief about the flag. And the ceremonies I’ve seen and read about also put importance on it, but as you’ve stated, it is representative. (I also noticed in watching the news that the 24 crew members of our recon plane were given protocol folded flags upon their arrival in Hawaii.) But I suppose a 20 year old civilian really should not argue about these things with a more seasoned veteran. SF ---
**Author:** ![Magnum\_s\_Mustache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Magnum\_s\_Mustache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magnum_s_Mustache)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2001, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-the-flag/61970/11 "2001-04-16T04:32:27Z")
Here is more flag info (as in info = information = fact). 😉 From the US Code Title 36: > **[U.S. Code: Title 36. PATRIOTIC AND NATIONAL OBSERVANCES, CEREMONIES,...](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36)** Lots more on respect and customs and such for all interested in learning more. SF ---
**Author:** ![starfish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/87869e/32.png) [@starfish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/starfish)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2001, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-the-flag/61970/12 "2001-04-16T13:51:52Z")
Magnum Note the use of the word “ceremony” in your site. That is not meant to be a military tactic. The flag, as a symbol of the country, is treated with respect by members of the military. The OP addressed fighting, not ceremonial treatment of the flag. When there are lives at stake, the flag becomes a piece of cloth. A soldier’s life is more important than a piece of cloth, which you acknowledge. Per the OP, military policy or protocol will not put cloth above a life. After the fighting, the flag, as a symbol, is important and respected. ---
**Author:** ![Magnum\_s\_Mustache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Magnum\_s\_Mustache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magnum_s_Mustache)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2001, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-the-flag/61970/13 "2001-04-16T14:27:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by starfish \* > \*\*Magnum > > Note the use of the word “ceremony” in your site. That is not meant to be a military tactic. The flag, as a symbol of the country, is treated with respect by members of the military. > > The OP addressed fighting, not ceremonial treatment of the flag. When there are lives at stake, the flag becomes a piece of cloth. A soldier’s life is more important than a piece of cloth, which you acknowledge. Per the OP, military policy or protocol will not put cloth above a life. After the fighting, the flag, as a symbol, is important and respected. \*\* Starfish, That’s the kind of distinction I was looking for! Your post makes a lot of sense. All around I think we can come to agreement on that. Thanks for the post, fish man. SF ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2001, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-the-flag/61970/14 "2001-04-16T16:01:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Magnum’s Mustache \* > Here is more flag info (as in info = information = fact). 😉 > > From the US Code Title 36: > > [http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/36/ch10.html](http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/36/ch10.html) > > Lots more on respect and customs and such for all interested in learning more. What? You’re not aware that this particular section is advisory[sup]1[/sup] and not regulatory[sup]2[/sup]? You’re not aware of what the words should[sup]3[/sup] and shall[sup]4[/sup] mean? {All definitions lifted from the Merriam-Webster online dictionary available at keyword: dictionary on AOL.} > [@](#): > > [sup]1[/sup]ad_vi_so\*ry [1] (adjective) > > First appeared 1778 > > 1 : having or exercising power to advise > > 2 : containing or giving advice > [@](#): > > [sup]2[/sup]reg_u_late (verb transitive) -lat_ed; -lat_ing > > [Middle English, from Late Latin regulatus, past participle of regulare, from Latin regula rule] > > First appeared 15th Century > > 1 a : to govern or direct according to rule > > b (1) : to bring under the control of law or constituted authority > > ``` > (2) : to make regulations for or concerning <~ the industries of a country> > > ``` > > 2 : to bring order, method, or uniformity to \<~ one’s habits\> > > 3 : to fix or adjust the time, amount, degree, or rate of \<~ the pressure of a tire\> > > – reg_u_la\*tive (adjective) > > – reg_u_la_to_ry (adjective) > [@](#): > > [sup]3[/sup]should > > [Middle English sholde, from Old English sceolde owed, was obliged to, ought to] > > past of SHALL > > First appeared before 12th Century > > 1 – used in auxiliary function to express condition \ > > 2 – used in auxiliary function to express obligation, propriety, or expediency \<'tis commanded I ~ do so --Shak.\> \ \ > > 3 – used in auxiliary function to express futurity from a point of view in the past \ > > 4 – used in auxiliary function to express what is probable or expected \ > > 5 – used in auxiliary function to express a request in a polite manner or to soften direct statement \ > [@](#): > > [sup]4[/sup]shall (verb), past should: present singular & plural shall > > [Middle English shal (1st & 3d singular present indicative), from Old English sceal; akin to Old High German scal (1st & 3d singular present indicative) ought to, must, Lithuanian skola debt] > > verbal auxiliary > > First appeared before 12th Century > > 1 archaic a : will have to : MUST > > b : will be able to : CAN > > 2 a – used to express a command or exhortation \ > > b – used in laws, regulations, or directives to express what is mandatory \ > > 3 a – used to express what is inevitable or seems likely to happen in the future \ \ > > b – used to express simple futurity \ > > 4 – used to express determination \ > > verb intransitive > > archaic : will go \ > usage From the reams of pronouncements written about the distinction between shall and will–dating back as far as the 17th century–it is clear that the rules laid down have never very accurately reflected actual usage. The nationalistic statements of 18th and 19th century British grammarians, who commonly cited the misuses of the Irish, the Scots, and occas. the Americans, suggest that the traditional rules may have come closest to the usage of southern England. Some modern commentators believe that English usage is still the closest to the traditionally prescribed norms. Most modern commentators allow that will is more common in nearly all uses. The entries for shall and will in this dictionary show current usage. Are you also unaware that some of that section is obsolete? I refer you to the parts of it regarding flag and clothing. ---
**Author:** ![Magnum\_s\_Mustache](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Magnum\_s\_Mustache](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magnum_s_Mustache)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2001, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/saving-the-flag/61970/15 "2001-04-16T16:48:40Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Monty \* \*\* > [@](#): > > What? You’re not aware that this particular section is advisory[sup]1[/sup] and not regulatory[sup]2[/sup]? You’re not aware of what the words should[sup]3[/sup] and shall[sup]4[/sup] mean?\*\* Umm… Yes. I was just posting a link. A link to more info for those that wanted it. I believe you read to much into the post. Sorry. Just a lead to some info on US Code (reprinted current and officially at \<[http://uscode.house.gov/title\_36.htm](http://uscode.house.gov/title_36.htm)\> ). Starfish hit the nail on the head as far as I’m concerned. I’ll still put my hand over my heart when I see Old Glory. I’m a patriotic SOB. Happy Monday, Monty! SF