# savings time birth
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savings-time-birth/849057
**Category:** In My Humble Opinion
**Created:** [March 7, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savings-time-birth/849057 "2020-03-07T19:08:25Z")
**Posts on this page:** 14
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2020, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savings-time-birth/849057/21 "2020-03-10T18:02:39Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#):
>
> DST doesn’t cease to exist in the fall. It ceases being used. If the time falls back an hour, and that causes your sequence of events to look funny, there’s nothing stopping you from recording it in DST throughout, or using standard time early.
The links I posted say otherwise - doctors are supposed to record the time of birth in local time, whether that’s DST or not (it’s there in the guidelines). And it has caused twins to be officially born later than the twin they were actually born before.
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### Author:  [@AlTraina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlTraina)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2020, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savings-time-birth/849057/22 "2020-03-10T18:16:20Z")
> [@cochrane](#):
>
> The doctor could record the times in GMT, which remains the same regardless of Daylight Saving Time.
Yes, but this could cause a different date to be recorded.
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### Author:  [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2020, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savings-time-birth/849057/23 "2020-03-10T19:06:14Z")
> [@chappachula](#):
>
> a related question: how does the extra hour count for people on shift work?
> Some jobs have strict rules about how many hours you are allowed to work, for safety reasons.
> Long-haul truck drivers are (I think!) absolutely required to stop driving after x number of hours on the road. How do they account for the time change?
A friend worked restocking overnight at a local KMart. Her shift supervisor insisted that on the night clocks were turned back they still got paid for 8, not 9 hours and that they’d make up for it in the spring!
Everyone was pissed off, telling her she was crazy, etc. When the supervisor’s boss stopped to reassure everyone they’d be paid for every minute worked, my friend turned in her smock. In front of the supervisor she said she couldn’t work for a company that employed idiots as supervisors. A coworker turned in her smock at the same time. That KMart shut down for good not long after.
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### Author:  [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savings-time-birth/849057/24 "2020-03-10T19:11:45Z")
I programmed our TV station through the night, continuously. What happened at 2AM, I don’t really know, as I didn’t stay up to watch it. Probably a show repeated; the log is no use. Since the server’s time when I checked in the AM was correct, I can only assume whatever happened was benign. And that’s a good thing.
Maybe next year I’ll stay up to see what happens at 2.
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### Author:  [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)
#### Post date: [March 10, 2020, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savings-time-birth/849057/25 "2020-03-10T19:11:58Z")
> [@chappachula](#):
>
> Long-haul truck drivers are (I think!) absolutely required to stop driving after x number of hours on the road. How do they account for the time change?
They essentially are using a stopwatch instead of wall clocks; otherwise, they’d be cut short coming East & get extra hours going West for each time zone line they crossed.
> [@Spiderman](#):
>
> The run tracking software we used at the ambulance had an edit to ensure that all times for each sequential event were later than the last time (Dispatch –\> Enroute –\> Arrive –\> etc.) but it didn’t account for the end of DSL. This forced us to ‘lie’ on a few Fall calls over the years as we could, say transport a patient before we were ever dispatched. I wonder what would have happened if one of those calls was ever involved in a lawsuit & how an ambulance-chaser might use that ‘inconsistency’ to pick apart the rest of trip sheet which documented care & treatment.
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#):
>
> DST doesn’t cease to exist in the fall. It ceases being used. If the time falls back an hour, and that causes your sequence of events to look funny, there’s nothing stopping you from recording it in DST throughout, or using standard time early.
Don’t know if you were referring to me or not but the county provided a summary sheet after we went (status =) **available** , this included all of the various call times. Their system accounted for DST ending & therefore we could go available, having treated & transported a patient before we were ever dispatched. Our run sheet software had logic that each sequential step had to be ≥ the previous step. We had no choice but to ‘fudge’ the times to remain on DST.
Between the time of an incident, a lawsuit being filed, & it finally getting it’s day in court it could be years. One might not remember that a given call happened over the end of DST, especially if you’re looking at it in say, June. On the theory that if one thing is wrong, what else is wrong that call is gone over with a fine toothed comb. In later years, we learned (if we remembered to do it - it might only come up every second, third, or fourth year) to put a line at the end about, “Certain times don’t match County & are off by one hour due to end of DST during this call.” which would head that all off.
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### Author:  [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)
#### Post date: [March 11, 2020, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savings-time-birth/849057/26 "2020-03-11T00:35:08Z")
> [@Spiderman](#):
>
> Don’t know if you were referring to me or not but the county provided a summary sheet after we went (status =) **available** , this included all of the various call times. Their system accounted for DST ending & therefore we could go available, having treated & transported a patient before we were ever dispatched. Our run sheet software had logic that each sequential step had to be ≥ the previous step. We had no choice but to ‘fudge’ the times to remain on DST.
>
> Between the time of an incident, a lawsuit being filed, & it finally getting it’s day in court it could be years. One might not remember that a given call happened over the end of DST, especially if you’re looking at it in say, June. On the theory that if one thing is wrong, what else is wrong that call is gone over with a fine toothed comb. In later years, we learned (if we remembered to do it - it might only come up every second, third, or fourth year) to put a line at the end about, “Certain times don’t match County & are off by one hour due to end of DST during this call.” which would head that all off.
That’s probably why doctors are asked to record births - and presumably deaths too - according to local time. Births come up in court far less often, but I wouldn’t have thought never - it could lead to a baby being born after the mother dies, rather than before, for example, but if the court knows that the doctors always use local time, then they know why it looks odd.
If it comes up in court, you can look up what the local time was, rather than guessing whether the doctor chose to use local time, local time without daylight savings, universal time/GMT, or whatever. A whole hour could make a big difference (and with GMT, yeah, like AlTraina says, it could even be a different day).
You need some way to know what time doctors are using, and using official local time is the one you can double-check.
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### Author:  [@bizerta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizerta)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2020, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savings-time-birth/849057/27 "2020-03-12T01:52:26Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#):
>
> A related question; when is the time of birth? When the top of the head emerges? When the feet emerge? It’s not an instantaneous event.
At some point, the doctor looks at the clock and declares the time of birth.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2020, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savings-time-birth/849057/28 "2020-03-12T02:15:19Z")
So there is no standard for what “time of birth” means? If so, that means there need be no ambiguity around a DST changeover birth; the doctor just has to pick a time other than the exact moment of the changeover.
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### Author:  [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)
#### Post date: [March 12, 2020, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savings-time-birth/849057/29 "2020-03-12T15:35:13Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#):
>
> So there is no standard for what “time of birth” means? If so, that means there need be no ambiguity around a DST changeover birth; the doctor just has to pick a time other than the exact moment of the changeover.
If I tell you something happened at a certain date and time, that is ambiguous unless I also specify the time zone. EST and EDT are different time zones. If the event happened in, say, New York City in 1836, or 1924, there is a table where you can look up the local time zone and have a pretty good guess, but if you need to rely on a doctor’s wall clock during an ambiguous period, there is nothing you can do. Furthermore, you cannot assume the clock was set accurately in the first place or keeps good time, regardless of zone shifts.
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### Author:  [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2020, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savings-time-birth/849057/30 "2020-03-13T01:15:11Z")
> [@SciFiSam](#):
>
> The links I posted say otherwise - doctors are supposed to record the time of birth in local time, whether that’s DST or not (it’s there in the guidelines). And it has caused twins to be officially born later than the twin they were actually born before.
That’s not the point. The point is that 1:15 “local time” is after 1:30 “local time” when the 1:30 is EDT and the 1:15 is EST. They aren’t “officially born later” just because the doctor failed to be necessarily specific about what local time was at the time of birth. You’re confusing “record in local time, even if that’s DST” with “record in local time and fail to specify if that’s DST despite being necessary for clarity.” The guideline is “if it’s DST locally, use it” not “If it’s DST locally, use it and then omit that detail even when otherwise ambiguous.”
I’m sure there have been plenty of twins recorded with this ambiguity and seeming contradiction. It doesn’t change the facts, though.
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### Author:  [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2020, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savings-time-birth/849057/31 "2020-03-13T01:24:41Z")
> [@cochrane](#):
>
> In the spring time change, there is no 2:00. The minute after 1:59 becomes 3:00, so one twin will be born at 3:15 and the second one at 3:45.
>
> In the fall time change, the minute after 1:59 becomes 1:00 all over again. An hour later, 2:00 comes as it normally does, so one twin will be born at 2:15 and the second at 2:45, just as in a normal day. The twin born first will be recorded as the older of the two.
Suppose they’re on a ship and they cross the International Date Line between births?
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### Author:  [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2020, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savings-time-birth/849057/32 "2020-03-13T07:01:48Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#):
>
> Suppose they’re on a ship and they cross the International Date Line between births?
That’s also a change of time zones and would hopefully be recorded with that noted. I recall mention of a ship carefully steamed across the IDL at the Equator at midnight 31 Dec 1999 / 1 Jan 2000 to simultaneously claim multiple minutes, hours, days, months, years, centuries, and (four) hemispheres. I don’t know of any births there/then.
Two adjacent births can fit on reversed days, months, and years by toting Mom across any time-zone line. A trip to the middle of the Pacific is unnecessary.
If birth above the territory of a nation grants citizenship, then a multiple-birth situation in an airplane over Central America could result in siblings with several nationalities. But that’s all one time zone except Panama. Births aboard an orbiting spaceship may pose jurisdiction problems - I don’t know if space law applies here.
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### Author:  [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)
#### Post date: [March 13, 2020, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savings-time-birth/849057/33 "2020-03-13T18:07:24Z")
> [@jtur88](#):
>
> I stand corrected on the nitpick.
> Please change my question to:
>
> If twins are born, one at 1:45 before a time change and the other at 1:15 after the time change, is the second-born legally the older of the two?
Is there a legal requirement somewhere that needs twins to identify which one is older?
Is there a legal requirement that depends on time-of-day to establish age?
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### Author:  [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)
#### Post date: [March 20, 2020, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/savings-time-birth/849057/34 "2020-03-20T01:39:07Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#):
>
> That’s not the point. The point is that 1:15 “local time” is after 1:30 “local time” when the 1:30 is EDT and the 1:15 is EST. They aren’t “officially born later” just because the doctor failed to be necessarily specific about what local time was at the time of birth. You’re confusing “record in local time, even if that’s DST” with “record in local time and fail to specify if that’s DST despite being necessary for clarity.” The guideline is “if it’s DST locally, use it” not “If it’s DST locally, use it and then omit that detail even when otherwise ambiguous.”
>
> I’m sure there have been plenty of twins recorded with this ambiguity and seeming contradiction. It doesn’t change the facts, though.
Sorry, but it’s not me ignoring the facts. The guidelines say use local time, and there have been cases of twins being recorded as being born later despite being born earlier.
I’m sure that somewhere on the medical records it says very clearly that daylight savings time was being used, but tbh since the existence of daylight savings time isn’t exactly a state secret, people are going to be aware that babies born at that time on that date might have apparent discrepancies.
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