# Sawdust used in place of flour to make bread? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 26, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994 "2015-03-26T00:45:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/1 "2015-03-26T00:45:55Z")
Seen this claim in fantasy and medieval fiction, bakers scamming customers by replacing flour with sawdust. Would this not be instantly apparent to consumers? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/2 "2015-03-26T00:56:09Z")
I’m not familiar with these stories. However sawdust was not readily found in medieval times in a form that could remotely substitute for flour, or even coarsely ground grain. Saws were rare then, and not the kind of fine tooth cabinetry saws that produce fine sawdust. That said, clearly if it’s whole grain flour some amount of fine sawdust would not be easily detected in bread. It’s probably not much, at some point the dough won’t form properly or rise. Also, considering some forms of hard or lightly risen breads that include nuts and other ingredients you could hide a lot of sawdust in all that. ---
**Author:** ![D18](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@D18](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D18)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/3 "2015-03-26T01:42:19Z")
For broad definitions of “sawdust”, this was [experimented with in the modern day](http://www.nytimes.com/1985/10/16/garden/wood-pulp-as-fiber-in-bread.html). ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/4 "2015-03-26T01:49:29Z")
It was a common adulterant in the 19th century. Prior to food purity laws, people could put whatever they wanted into food. > [@](#): > > to look back nostalgically and assume, for example, that the bread which formed the staff of life was home-baked, or, if bought, was wholesome and nutritional, is romantic nonsense. By the 1840s home baked bread had died out among the rural poor; in the small tenements of the urban masses, unequipped as these were with ovens, it never existed. In 1872 Dr. Hassall, the pioneer investigator into food adulteration and the principal reformer in this vital area of health, demonstrated that half of the bread he examined had considerable quantities of alum. Alum, while not itself poisonous, by inhibiting the digestion could lower the nutritional value of other foods. > > The list of poisonous additives reads like the stock list of some mad and malevolent chemist: strychnine, cocculus inculus (both are hallucinogens) and copperas in rum and beer; sulphate of copper in pickles, bottled fruit, wine, and preserves; lead chromate in mustard and snuff; sulphate of iron in tea and beer; ferric ferrocynanide, lime sulphate, and turmeric in chinese tea; copper carbonate, lead sulphate, bisulphate of mercury, and Venetian lead in sugar confectionery and chocolate; lead in wine and cider; all were extensively used and were accumulative in effect, resulting, over a long period, in chronic gastritis, and, indeed, often fatal food poisoning. Red lead gave Gloucester cheese its ‘healthy’ red hue, flour and arrowroot a rich thickness to cream, and tea leaves were ‘dried, dyed, and recycled again.’ > > As late as 1877 the Local Government Board found that approximately a quarter of the milk it examined contained excessive water, or chalk, and ten per cent of all the butter, over eight per cent of the bread, and 50 per cent of the gin had copper in them to heighten the color. Here’s a quote mentioning sawdust: > [@](#): > > Water, for example, was used to dilute milk and gin, while > sawdust helped enlarge loaves of bread. Cheap rye or potato flour was often substituted for more > expensive wheat flour, and ground tapioca took the place of cocoa powder in chocolate. Coffee > (which often contained a large percentage of ground chicory) was made darker in color through > the addition of burnt sugar. Although such adulteration was unscrupulous, other instances posed > serious health risks. Bread was artificially whitened with chalk, and spent tea leaves and coffee > grounds were reprocessed using animal dung. Brewers used a plant source of strychnine to > increase the bitterness of their beer and added opium to make it more addictive. Red dyes > commonly used in cheeses, cayenne pepper, and candy were made with lead and mercury, while > green dyes were made from copper salts. Manufacturers added sulfuric acid to vinegar to > increase its acidity. ([http://www.maxinetaylor.net/portfolio/Food%20Adulteration%20Article.pdf](http://www.maxinetaylor.net/portfolio/Food%20Adulteration%20Article.pdf)) The chalk in bread was an amusing case: it was finally banned. Years later, people started being concerned about not getting enough calcium, so bread was enriched with calcium carbonate – chalk. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/5 "2015-03-26T05:28:45Z")
What was the rationale for adding alum to bread? What was it in lieu of? ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/6 "2015-03-26T06:22:04Z")
> [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > What was the rationale for adding alum to bread? What was it in lieu of? Alum was used as a whitening agent for flour. > **[The Church of England Magazine](https://books.google.com.ph/books?id=xRURAAAAIAAJ&printsec=titlepage&hl=en)** > [@](#): > > The unwise preference given so universally to white bread led to the pernicious practice, already noticed, of mixing alum with the flour and this again to all sorts of adulterations and impositions; for it enabled bakers, who were so disposed, by adding more and more alum, to make bread made from the flour of a damaged or an inferior grain look like the best or the most costly, and to dispose of it accordingly; at once defrauding the purchaser, and tampering with his health. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/7 "2015-03-26T07:31:56Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m not familiar with these stories. However sawdust was not readily found in medieval times in a form that could remotely substitute for flour, or even coarsely ground grain. Saws were rare then, and not the kind of fine tooth cabinetry saws that produce fine sawdust. Medieval craftsmen were quite familiar with rasps and various sandpaper substitutes, both of which produce sawdust as fine as you like. ---
**Author:** ![Saturn\_Dreams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Saturn\_Dreams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saturn_Dreams)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/8 "2015-03-26T09:58:01Z")
Not quite sawdust, but wood pulp has been used in many commercially prepared foods, including those from fast food restaurants. It’s been going on for years and is used as filler, or a thickening agent. As you can imagine, there’s no health benefit to it as wood pulp is basically cellulose, which cannot be digested. As for the companies that add wood pulp to its foods, they say cellulose is cellulose is cellulose, whether it comes from a carrot or wood… [Cite](http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2014/07/10/329767647/from-mcdonalds-to-organic-valley-youre-probably-eating-wood-pulp) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/9 "2015-03-26T11:29:40Z")
**grude** , dude. When I read the title and saw it was you, I assumed this was going to be about a present day practice in Trinidad. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/10 "2015-03-26T12:25:53Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m not familiar with these stories. However sawdust was not readily found in medieval times in a form that could remotely substitute for flour, or even coarsely ground grain. Saws were rare then, and not the kind of fine tooth cabinetry saws that produce fine sawdust. . That statement sounds extremely unlikely. “saws were rare then?” What, then, was the source of sawn wood used in construction? Medieval buildings in towns and estates weren’t built with undressed timber. I’d like to se a cite. As a counter-cite, the Wikipedia page on sawmills confirms that they have a long history going back to classical times, and in particular > [@](#): > > Sawmills became widespread in medieval Europe again, as one was sketched by Villard de Honnecourt in c. 1250.[5] They are claimed to have been introduced to Madeira following its discovery in c. 1420 and spread widely in Europe in the 16th century.[6] > **[Sawmill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawmill)** > > A sawmill (saw mill, saw-mill) or lumber mill is a facility where logs are cut into lumber. Modern sawmills use a motorized saw to cut logs lengthwise to make long pieces, and crosswise to length depending on standard or custom sizes (dimensional lumber). The "portable" sawmill is simple to operate. The log lies flat on a steel bed, and the motorized saw cuts the log horizontally along the length of the bed, by the operator manually pushing the saw. The most basic kind of sawmill consists of a ch... These were reciprocating saws, by the way, which duplicated the action of sawyers with a saw pit. The circular saw was a much later innovation. Which brings up another point – man-powered saws were there when mill-powered saws weren’t. All saws produce sawdust – you don’t need fine-toothed saws. If you need fine dust you can sieve out the coarser stuff. You think saw dust is bad? a long time ago I read a piece in Natural History magazine about bakers adulterating flour with _marble dust_ to make their bread whiter. And this wasn’t modern history, but stuff from centuries ago. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/11 "2015-03-26T12:41:45Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > You think saw dust is bad? a long time ago I read a piece in Natural History magazine about bakers adulterating flour with _marble dust_ to make their bread whiter. And this wasn’t modern history, but stuff from centuries ago. I read once of attempts, during a siege, to make bread using ground bones. As delicious as that sounds, it didn’t work out so well. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/12 "2015-03-26T13:03:58Z")
I saw a documentary a few years ago where a Chinese bakery was using cardboard in their buns. They looked delicious and apparently tasted fine, since they were selling them. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/13 "2015-03-26T13:06:04Z")
Here’s a cite I could find quickly about the [dearth of saws long ago](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longship). It’s about Viking ship construction, put the point is clear. > [@](#): > > Timber was worked with iron adzes and axes. Most of the smoothing was done with a side axe. Other tools used in woodwork were hammers, wedges, drawknives, planes and saws. Iron saws were probably very rare. **The doomsday book in England (1086 AD) records only 13 saws**. Possibly these were pit saws and it is uncertain if they were used in longship construction. The saws that were available were made of iron and were very thick producing large chips. In addition pit saws would have been used on freshly cut trees which would produce wet pulpy chips, sifting fine sawdust from that would not work well, and more than that not worth the effort for a dishonest baker. As I said there were heavy breads that you could hide rocks in, but coarse sawdust found from most of the few saws at the time would be easily noticed in fine flour risen breads. Blake’s point about rasps is important, that would be the most likely source of find sawdust, but I doubt large piles of sawdust were produced in one place in the way you’d find them at a modern mill or woodshop. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/14 "2015-03-26T13:23:48Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Here’s a cite I could find quickly about the [dearth of saws long ago](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longship). It’s about Viking ship construction, put the point is clear. > > The saws that were available were made of iron and were very thick producing large chips. In addition pit saws would have been used on freshly cut trees which would produce wet pulpy chips, sifting fine sawdust from that would not work well, and more than that not worth the effort for a dishonest baker. > > As I said there were heavy breads that you could hide rocks in, but coarse sawdust found from most of the few saws at the time would be easily noticed in fine flour risen breads. > > Blake’s point about rasps is important, that would be the most likely source of find sawdust, but I doubt large piles of sawdust were produced in one place in the way you’d find them at a modern mill or woodshop. We’ve got dueling saw references, then. I maintain that 1.) There were plenty of carpenter’s saws back then, too, in addition to the pit saws 2.) even pit saws produce multiple sizes of sawdust, especially as they dry out and get moved around 3.) I’ll bet you had plenty of sawdust, especially fine stuff, at carpenter’s shops. Please note, as well, the four century gap between the Domesday Book and the Wikipedia cite. I’m not sure how significant that is, though. I’d be willing to bet there was plenty of fine sawdust from saws in the Roman Empire. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/15 "2015-03-26T13:37:50Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > We’ve got dueling saw references, then. I maintain that > > 1.) There were plenty of carpenter’s saws back then, too, in addition to the pit saws The number of carpenter’s saws may be unknown. They would have had small teeth, and probably re-purposed as they wore down, and corrosion could have destroyed the evidence of the teeth in any remains. > [@](#): > > 2.) even pit saws produce multiple sizes of sawdust, especially as they dry out and get moved around I don’t argue that, but going to the trouble of gathering fine sawdust for a what would only be a small time scam doesn’t sound worth the trouble. There were bakers with large ovens and they wouldn’t be risking their clientele (and maybe their lives) by selling noticeably adulterated bread. > [@](#): > > 3.) I’ll bet you had plenty of sawdust, especially fine stuff, at carpenter’s shops. Possibly, but there wouldn’t have been a lot of carpentry shops. Wheelwrights and maybe weapon makers would have the tools and the demand for finely worked wood. I don’t know, but I think only royalty and the church could afford fine wood-working. > [@](#): > > Please note, as well, the four century gap between the Domesday Book and the Wikipedia cite. I’m not sure how significant that is, though. I’d be willing to bet there was plenty of fine sawdust from saws in the Roman Empire. Can’t say, but Roman builders and craftsmen were likely more advanced than their later medieval counterparts. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/16 "2015-03-26T14:05:34Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > That statement sounds extremely unlikely. “saws were rare then?” What, then, was the source of sawn wood used in construction? Medieval buildings in towns and estates weren’t built with undressed timber. To be fair, a lot of the dressing of large timbers in the early Medieval period would be done by splitting the wood and using an adze on it, rather than our modern quarter-sawn timber (see my second link below) . But it’s crazy to say saws were rare even then - the [Mästermyr Toolchest](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A4stermyr_chest) from Gotland contained [more](http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/wood.shtml#Tools) than [one](http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/tools/reviews/g1024/whats-inside-a-viking-tool-chest/?slide=2) [saw](http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/tools/reviews/g1024/whats-inside-a-viking-tool-chest/?slide=5). That’s just one guy’s toolbox and there’s no sign he was particularly elite. And as you said, by the High Medieval, sawmills were a thing again. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/17 "2015-03-26T14:08:56Z")
It would not surprise me that carpenters could find a ready market for what sawdust they produced as an adulterant - but it would surprise me they they produced anything like enough sawdust for it to become a significant one. This was an era when used you every part of the pig bar the oink, and absolutely everything had a value. Sawdust in the sausages seems a good use. No matter what you do you will need some gluten or gluten like component to create a dough that supports itself enough to rise and cohere as a loaf. It doesn’t seem viable to make any of the adulterants actual alternatives to flour. Certainly not the cheap ones. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/18 "2015-03-26T14:19:06Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The number of carpenter’s saws may be unknown. Well, we know one carpenter had 3 different ones… > [@](#): > > Possibly, but there wouldn’t have been a lot of carpentry shops. :dubious: > [@](#): > > Wheelwrights and maybe weapon makers would have the tools and the demand for finely worked wood. I don’t know, but I think only royalty and the church could afford fine wood-working. Carpentry doesn’t have to mean “fine wood-working”. Wooden items were ubiquitous, and not everyone had the skills to make their own (or they had other jobs to do) - of course there were carpenter’s shops everywhere. Where were people going to get their chests, and seats, and doors, and tables? > [@](#): > > Can’t say, but Roman builders and craftsmen were likely more advanced than their later medieval counterparts. Why? Was there a period when people forgot how to work wood? Have you ever _[seen](https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2380/3538492283_f1a1600d9d.jpg)_ medieval [woodworking](http://www.engineering-timelines.com/scripts/engineeringItem.asp?id=491)? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/19 "2015-03-26T14:29:21Z")
Plus, in anything resembling a small town or local neighbourhood it would become common gossip if the local carpenter made regular deliveries to the baker. I would imagine that sort of activity being more common in the more likely anonymity of large city slums of the 1800’s per RealityChuck’s quote. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/20 "2015-03-26T14:34:10Z")
The place to adulterate the flour would be at the miller. Sawdust of mixed sizes could be mingled with the whole grain and the lot milled into flour of a uniform texture. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994.md?page=2)