# Sawdust used in place of flour to make bread? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 26, 2015, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994 "2015-03-26T00:45:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/21 "2015-03-26T14:49:47Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > The place to adulterate the flour would be at the miller. Well, if Chaucer is anything to go by, millers were shits. Wouldn’t put anything past them. Especially getting carpenters in trouble 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/22 "2015-03-26T14:56:31Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > To be fair, a lot of the dressing of large timbers in the early Medieval period would be done by splitting the wood and using an adze on it, rather than our modern quarter-sawn timber (see my second link below) . This is my main point, saws were a specialty item not used as commonly as we would think now. One reason is that iron is not a great material for making saws. Cast iron would have brittle teeth that easily break, and even wrought iron would have that problem because the grain would be oriented in the wrong direction allowing the teeth to break. Most of the saws that were in use would have been heavy items. Wrought iron is much more suitable for adzes, fros, scrapers, and other simpler cutting tools which were used for the majority of wood forming until steel became plentiful. > [@](#): > > But it’s crazy to say saws were rare even then - the [Mästermyr Toolchest](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A4stermyr_chest) from Gotland contained [more](http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/wood.shtml#Tools) than [one](http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/tools/reviews/g1024/whats-inside-a-viking-tool-chest/?slide=2) [saw](http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/tools/reviews/g1024/whats-inside-a-viking-tool-chest/?slide=5). That’s just one guy’s toolbox and there’s no sign he was particularly elite. And as you said, by the High Medieval, sawmills were a thing again. I gave my cite above, maybe it’s not even reflecting the actual situation, but what I know about is the evolution of carpentry tools and woodworking techniques, and I think saws would not have been that commonly used in an age when plenty of labor was available to use simpler and less expensive tools. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/23 "2015-03-26T15:00:11Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Plus, in anything resembling a small town or local neighbourhood it would become common gossip if the local carpenter made regular deliveries to the baker. I would imagine that sort of activity being more common in the more likely anonymity of large city slums of the 1800’s per RealityChuck’s quote. Getting off the side theme, this is why I think this would only be a small time scam. Bakers don’t get up in the middle of the night to fire their ovens only to sell an adulterated product which might get them killed if the local populace finds out. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/24 "2015-03-26T15:26:59Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Getting off the side theme, this is why I think this would only be a small time scam. Bakers don’t get up in the middle of the night to fire their ovens only to sell an adulterated product which might get them killed if the local populace finds out. If a baker can get sawdust cheaper than flour, there’s an obvious financial motive for replacing some of the flour with sawdust. A miller would have the same motivation. You wouldn’t want to replace enough of the flour with sawdust that people would be likely to notice it, of course. People in the same time period went to the trouble of clipping coins, which would also carry a risk of being caught and killed, [sometimes in nasty ways](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Rogers_and_Anne_Rogers). The _Anglo-Saxon Chronicle_ mentions coin clipping in England in 1150. You’re probably not going to get a lot of profit each time you clip a coin, either, but if you keep doing it it adds up. ---
**Author:** ![Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/son_of_a_rich/32/5439_2.png) [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Son_of_a_Rich)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/25 "2015-03-26T15:27:35Z")
Complaints of the lack of fiber in their diet, then about sawdust in their bread. There’s no satisfying some people. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/26 "2015-03-26T15:36:37Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Getting off the side theme, this is why I think this would only be a small time scam. Bakers don’t get up in the middle of the night to fire their ovens only to sell an adulterated product which might get them killed if the local populace finds out. If a baker or a miller could increase profit even a few percent by mixing an undetectable amount of sawdust with the flour, that is a pretty strong incentive to adulterate the product. Over the course of years, the additional few percent of profit adds up to a considerable amount. As a one time scam, no it probably isn’t worth it. As a long term scam? Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/27 "2015-03-26T15:58:12Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > This is my main point, saws were a specialty item not used as commonly as we would think now. This does not explain why one guy had several. I think you keep saying “saws” when you _mean_ “two-man pit saws” > [@](#): > > I gave my cite above, maybe it’s not even reflecting the actual situation, but what I know about is the evolution of carpentry tools and woodworking techniques, and I think saws would not have been that commonly used in an age when plenty of labor was available to use simpler and less expensive tools. There are things you can do with saws that you can’t do as easily with other tools, or guys wouldn’t have several of them. I feel like I’m repeating myself here. You’re saying they were rare, and I’m pointing out that one guy on Gotland (_hardly_ the centre of Europe) had 3… ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/28 "2015-03-26T16:12:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > This does not explain why one guy had several. Clearly, he was a saw fetishist. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/29 "2015-03-26T16:23:51Z")
I think you can both be right. I certainly seems to me that while saws existed and weren’t startlingly rare, lots of finish work that today we’d do with saws was instead done with an adze or plane or draw knife. Anyway, at least sawdust isn’t actively toxic. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/30 "2015-03-26T16:46:05Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I think you can both be right. I certainly seems to me that while saws existed and weren’t startlingly rare, lots of finish work that today we’d do with saws was instead done with an adze or plane or draw knife. Correct, and I don’t see the need to belabor the point. I just wanted to point out that sawdust wouldn’t have been as readily available as today which some people may not realize. I’m not at all claiming it was non-existent. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/31 "2015-03-26T16:47:13Z")
It might also be the kind of thing a miller or baker might try during a famine or a siege. People have eaten all sorts of things otherwise considered inedible during times like that. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/32 "2015-03-26T17:17:07Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Seen this claim in fantasy and medieval fiction, bakers scamming customers by replacing flour with sawdust. > > Would this not be instantly apparent to consumers? Actually there are possibilities to substitute parts of the flour for tree bark “flour”. Here you can read up on Bark Bread: [Bark bread - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bark_bread) [Here is a recipe for a bark bread](http://www.nordicwellbeing.com/Julies_Kitchen/2011/01/09/bark-bread-is-back/) [Cinnamon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinnamon)is also a bark Also, when you look at the ingredients list of your favorite breakfast cereal, burger, weight watcher ice-cream, etc and it contains the ingredient “cellulose” it, it may be a derivative of wood pulp. [Cite](http://www.thestreet.com/story/11012915/1/cellulose-wood-pulp-never-tasted-so-good.html) ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/33 "2015-03-26T17:29:15Z")
> [@Anne\_Neville](#): > > It might also be the kind of thing a miller or baker might try during a famine or a siege. People have eaten all sorts of things otherwise considered inedible during times like that. …our daily bread give us today…[with wood](http://www.nytimes.com/1985/10/16/garden/wood-pulp-as-fiber-in-bread.html) Is there a famine going on in the US & EU today? Good old German [Ersatz bread](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ersatz_good#World_War_II) contained saw dust. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/34 "2015-03-26T18:52:20Z")
I know that the narrator of the BBC’s _World at War_ miniseries (Lawrence Olivier) states that this was done in Russia during the Germans siege of Leningrad. [Wiki confirms this.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Leningrad#Effect_on_the_city) Obviously ‘costumer concern’ was not an issue in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Gymnopithys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/fbc32d/32.png) [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/35 "2015-03-26T20:49:01Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > We’ve got dueling saw references, then. I maintain that > > 1.) There were plenty of carpenter’s saws back then, too, in addition to the pit saws > > 2.) even pit saws produce multiple sizes of sawdust, especially as they dry out and get moved around > > 3.) I’ll bet you had plenty of sawdust, especially fine stuff, at carpenter’s shops. > > Please note, as well, the four century gap between the Domesday Book and the Wikipedia cite. I’m not sure how significant that is, though. I’d be willing to bet there was plenty of fine sawdust from saws in the Roman Empire. Also Latin _scobis_, Ancient Greek _prísma_ sawdust, _xylopristikós_ relative to wood sawdust. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/36 "2015-03-26T21:11:24Z")
> [@D18](#): > > For broad definitions of “sawdust”, this was [experimented with in the modern day](http://www.nytimes.com/1985/10/16/garden/wood-pulp-as-fiber-in-bread.html). I remember this. Fiber started to become a “thing” in food in the 70s. So some companies added sawdust-y stuff to their high-fiber breads. We tried out a loaf of Roman Meal or whatever. It literally tasted like sawdust. ??? So we checked the label: “cellulose from wood fiber” or some such. Eccch. Yeah, you can add sawdust to bread, but any significant amount can be tasted. ---
**Author:** ![Obtenebrate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9f8e36/32.png) [@Obtenebrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Obtenebrate)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2015, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/37 "2015-03-28T13:53:45Z")
I actually really like Roman Meal bread, but I actually haven’t been able to find a store that carries it locally. Assuming it still exists. Also, considering bread at the various times mentioned had a high probability of containing weevils in various states of growth and or dismemberment, or if it had rye might contain ergot, sawdust seems completely benign. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/38 "2015-03-29T15:26:45Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Would this not be instantly apparent to consumers? Have you ever eaten low fat bread? Was it instantly apparent to you? They lower the calories in light breads by adding wood cellulose as an ingredient. I’ve had it, it still tastes like bread more or less. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/39 "2015-03-29T15:42:21Z")
> [@Saturn\_Dreams](#): > > Not quite sawdust, but wood pulp has been used in many commercially prepared foods, including those from fast food restaurants. It’s been going on for years and is used as filler, or a thickening agent. As you can imagine, there’s no health benefit to it as wood pulp is basically cellulose, which cannot be digested. As for the companies that add wood pulp to its foods, they say cellulose is cellulose is cellulose, whether it comes from a carrot or wood… > > [Cite](http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2014/07/10/329767647/from-mcdonalds-to-organic-valley-youre-probably-eating-wood-pulp) > [@Son\_of\_a\_Rich](#): > > Complaints of the lack of fiber in their diet, then about sawdust in their bread. There’s no satisfying some people. Go to any supermarket and check out the ingredients of “high fiber” bread. I bet you will find cellulose, aka sawdust. It doesn’t change the flavor or texture of the bread very much. Well, if you add a whole lot I suppose it would, but there are some fairly hefty additions of “cellulose” on the market today, and while the bread isn’t great, it tastes fine. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2015, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994/40 "2015-03-29T16:00:30Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Go to any supermarket and check out the ingredients of “high fiber” bread. I bet you will find cellulose, aka sawdust. It doesn’t change the flavor or texture of the bread very much. Well, if you add a whole lot I suppose it would, but there are some fairly hefty additions of “cellulose” on the market today, and while the bread isn’t great, it tastes fine. One of our dogs had a bout of colitis and was on a high fiber prescription diet for a few weeks. The fiber source was ground peanut hulls. The dog loved the taste! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawdust-used-in-place-of-flour-to-make-bread/715994.md?page=3)