# Sawed-off shotguns **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 14, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284 "2003-11-14T18:57:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MikeS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MikeS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeS)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/1 "2003-11-14T18:57:56Z")
I read a recent [article](http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/11/09/columbine.parole.ap/index.html) on [CNN.com](http://CNN.com) which included the following passage: > [@](#): > > Duran pleaded guilty to supplying minors with a handgun and illegally possessing a sawed-off shotgun. I’ve heard mention of “sawed-off” shotguns many times in the past, but it occured to me when I read this that I had no idea what, exactly, sawed-off shotguns are, and why they’re so much worse than regular shotguns. Does one really make a sawed-off shotgun my taking a hacksaw to a “regular” shotgun, or can shorter-barreled shotguns be purchased? Does this make the gun more dangerous in any way other than making it more easily concealable? Are they legal anywhere in the U.S., and what’s the main reason for banning them where they’re not? And what misconceptions have I revealed myself to have in the above paragraph? Hopefully I’m not treading too close to the “no illegal stuff on this board” edict - I’m really just curious about this… ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/2 "2003-11-14T19:18:43Z")
A sawed off shotgun, is one wear a person saws off enough of the barrell to give it a barrell length under 18 inches long. Short barrelled shotguns cannot be purchased by ordinary means. However, with proper forms and a taxstamp from the ATF, they are legal for individuals to own. Provided of course, that your state does not impose more restrictive gun laws than the federal government. So actual legal possession will vary in your area. I wouldn’t say a shortbarrelled shotgun is any more dangerous. A 20 inch shotgun will kill you just as dead. Concealability is possibly the main concern. I don’t never understand why most firearms get banned over others. Hope that helps. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/3 "2003-11-14T19:23:25Z")
In the US, under the BATF rules, there are standards for both barrel length and overall length for shotguns and rifles. IIRC the minimum barrel length for rifles is 16" and the overall length is somewhere around 24". Don’t remember for sure. There are similar dimensions for shotguns. A sawed off shotgun can be owned under federal rules same as you can own a fully automatic weapon. Special FFL (Federal Firearms License) is required along with a healthy tax. My brother in law has a .410 shot pistol that was made back in the early part of the 20th century. It was legal then, but illegal now. There was an amnesty period back in the 1970s and he was able to register it with out paying the fee. It has a barrel that’s about 8" in length as well as a pistol grip. The guns overall length is about 12". A sawed off shotgun is only good for hunting people, or stopping people who are hunting you! So I guess the feeling at the time was that they should be controlled. A check with a market or liquer store in certain sections of town may turn up a few modified shotguns. I don’t recall ever seeing “factory made” sawed off shotguns. A cheap shotgun and a hacksaw are all you need. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/4 "2003-11-14T19:38:39Z")
I don’t never understand why I fail to proof read either… To clarify a couple things, it’s 26" overall minimum length for rifles and shotguns. The minimum barrel length for a rifle is indeed 16 inches. Also, you are not required to have an FFL/SOT to own a short barrelled rifle or shotgun. Or many full automatic weapons for that matter. The FFL/SOT is a dealers license. If you’re not dealing, you dont need it. You just need to pay your $200 in taxes and fill out a form. However, the dealers license does allow you to possess some things you would not be able to as an individual. Things like domestically produced machine guns made after 1986 and imported machine guns that arrived here before 1969. But if you just want a 1983 M16, you can own that as an individual without the FFL and the SOT. But, if you live in a state that does not let individuals own machineguns at all, I guess you _would_ need a dealer’s license. But that is due to the state restrictions on personal ownership. Not federal. Florida does not restrict individuals any further than US Code. So the dealer’s license is not always necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/5 "2003-11-14T19:48:19Z")
> [@](#): > > “I don’t recall ever seeing “factory made” sawed off shotguns. A cheap shotgun and a hacksaw are all you need.” Every shotgun manufacturer I can think of also makes short barrelled shotguns. They have many tactical applications and advantages for building entries. There are also some custom guys out there making them. [Serbu](http://www.serbu.com), for instance makes a 6" version. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/6 "2003-11-14T19:53:18Z")
**Bear\_Nenno** I know someone who has the Class III FFL. He has a “collection” of interesting items. Maybe it’s just because of the possible state restrictions you mention. I do know that my BIL has no license. So your statement makes sense. I have a “friend” who modified a double barreled shotgun for a local LEO many years back. Easy to do. I don’t know if the LEO registered the weapon. ---
**Author:** ![GaryM](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garym/32/241_2.png) [@GaryM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaryM)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/7 "2003-11-14T20:01:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bear\_Nenno \* > \*\*Every shotgun manufacturer I can think of also makes short barrelled shotguns. They have many tactical applications and advantages for building entries. There are also some custom guys out there making them. [Serbu](http://www.serbu.com), for instance makes a 6" version. \*\* It’s obvious I’ve been shopping in the wrong stores! ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/8 "2003-11-14T20:04:40Z")
A shotgun with a barrel shorter than legal has a defensible hunting utility as a grouse gun, as well. Grouse are typically flushed at short range, presenting themselves as targets suddenly, and only for a short interval. A short barreled gun with a wide dispersion pattern that you can quickly train in the right direction to get off a shot at the bird, and not have to be precisely on target is an advantage. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/9 "2003-11-14T22:03:15Z")
I take it from the preceeding post that the advantage of sawing off the barrel (besides concealability) is the ability to train the gun quickly, and a wider dispersal of shot. (Qualities that would make it desirable in a crime setting, offense or defense.) What’s the downside? Decreased distance? ---
**Author:** ![shunt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ad7895/32.png) [@shunt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shunt)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/10 "2003-11-14T22:10:03Z")
With a wider dispersion, I would think you would lose accuracy, with decreased distance the pellets travel. But at a shorter distance the lower muzzle velocity wouldn’t make that much difference to the target/person/grouse. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/11 "2003-11-14T23:08:27Z")
The wider dispersion also means that at a distance you may not have an adequate density of shot to assure that a pellet hits your target, particularly if you are using larger shot, like you might use for bigger game birds. If you intend to use a shotgun at a distance, you will probably install a “choke” on it, which tightens up the pattern. ---
**Author:** ![adirondack\_mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5a626/32.png) [@adirondack\_mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adirondack_mike)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/12 "2003-11-14T23:16:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by shunt \* > \*\*With a wider dispersion, I would think you would lose accuracy, with decreased distance the pellets travel. But at a shorter distance the lower muzzle velocity wouldn’t make that much difference to the target/person/grouse. \*\* Accuracy isn’t all that critical when you are clearing out a room - or shack. The shorter the barrel the wider the spread. Just point in the general direction and pull the trigger. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/13 "2003-11-15T01:05:24Z")
WARNING: The following is not a political commentary on US gun laws (about which I have a foot in both camp): The everyday manner in which you guys talk about such things as machine guns… :eek: :eek: :eek: That is all. Once again, not a criticism. More power to ya, but WOAH! ---
**Author:** ![DreadCthulhu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DreadCthulhu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DreadCthulhu)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/14 "2003-11-15T01:27:35Z")
What is so strange about talking about machine guns? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/15 "2003-11-15T02:08:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheLoadedDog \* > \*\*The everyday manner in which you guys talk about such things as machine guns… > > :eek: :eek: :eek: > > That is all. Once again, not a criticism. More power to ya, but WOAH! \*\* Our country was founded by gun nuts. Guns and freedom are practically synonymous for us. And as a gun nut myself, I _love_ this thread. It gives me hope and comfort. Time to go fondle my FAL… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/16 "2003-11-15T03:22:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheLoadedDog \* > \*\*WARNING: The following is not a political commentary on US gun laws (about which I have a foot in both camp): > > The everyday manner in which you guys talk about such things as machine guns… > > :eek: :eek: :eek: > > That is all. Once again, not a criticism. More power to ya, but WOAH! \*\* Don’t get the wrong idea, VERY, VERY, VERY, few people in the U.S. own a fully auto gun. They are not in the least bit common. If you want to own one legally, you will need to jump through some very high hoops. I have never seen one. However, most gun owners in the U.S. have owned guns for a long time. For gun owners, the difference between a semi-auto and a full auto is common knowledge. Many people in the U.S. own guns. I have 7. All of them handed down to me, except two which where gifts. I started shooting when I was 11 years old. We can talk calmly about guns because we know what they are. We are not afraid of them. We have been educated in how to safely use them. Guns aren’t a Hollywood movie come to life, they are bits of steel, plastic and wood. I don’t considering myself ‘pro-gun’ any more than I consider myself ‘pro-shovel’. It’s silly to make such a statement. Guns exist, they are a tool. They won’t go away. I’d rather have one than not. ---
**Author:** ![Lorenzo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4da419/32.png) [@Lorenzo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lorenzo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/17 "2003-11-15T03:27:47Z")
Ditto what adirondack\_mike said: sawed off shotguns are much more effective at extremely short range than a conventional shotgun, rifle or handgun, particularly if the shooter is not so skilled. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/18 "2003-11-15T06:56:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TheLoadedDog \*That is all. Once again, not a criticism. More power to ya, but WOAH! \*\* Now I have to wonder: what do guys in other countries yell when they want to be the one who sits next to the driver? ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/19 "2003-11-15T07:15:17Z")
I call crossbow! FWIW the shorty shotgun on the Serbu site is in a different legal catetory from short barreled shotgun. It’s an AOW - any other weapon. It requres the same red tape but has only a $5 transfer tax. The difference is that it was manufactured from the beginning as a short weapon and never had a buttstock. ---
**Author:** ![Extraneous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/0ea827/32.png) [@Extraneous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Extraneous)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2003, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284/20 "2003-11-15T07:59:25Z")
Just for giggles: What is the dispersion pattern from a 12 guage cut down to, say, a 10" barrel? 60[sup]o[/sup]? 90[sup]o[/sup]? Could I really take out a 20’x20’ room with two shells? (assume a straight (non-choked) barrel was the donor, if it matters) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sawed-off-shotguns/213284.md?page=2)