# Say, GM, Where's YOUR Hybrid Vehicle? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [May 29, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035 "2005-05-29T23:44:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/21 "2005-05-30T16:53:26Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > My guess is never. The only reason people talk about fuel cells is because it’s comfortably far in the future. It allows politicians and auto makers to say “See, we’re serious about saving the environment!” without doing the actual hard work, just a token basic research. If politicians were really serious about reducing oil usage they would put tougher restrictions on fuel economy, invest in public transport, offer more perks (incl. tax breaks) to owners of fuel-efficient vehicles (not just hybrids but any fuel-efficient sub-compact car), tax gas at higher rates, etc. If auto makers were serious about it - wait, why would they be, if consumers weren’t interested in it, and nobody is forcing them to be? Except, of course, you’re forgetting the cynicism of many consumers when it comes to cars. Tons of people believe that the carmakers and oil companies are keeping 100 MPG carbs off the market, and Ford had the minivan concept a **decade** before Chrysler ever built the first minivan. The folks at Ford didn’t want to build 'em, even though they had plenty of data to indicate that consumers would buy them. It was only after Lee Iacocca left Ford, with the plans for them, and the front wheel drive cars (that Ford also refused to build), that consumers began to see what they’d been asking for. The history of the automobile is littered with good ideas that didn’t get picked up for decades (if ever) because of the shortsightedness of the auto industry execs. To flog the car from whence I take my user name, Tucker had moving headlights, four wheel independant suspension, integrated safety cage, “crumple zones,” padded interiors, streamling, seatbelts, emphasis on fuel economy, and plans for disc brakes, fuel injection, and a multifuel engine long before the other car makers had even thought of such things. That’s just scratching the surface of ideas which never made it into production. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/22 "2005-05-30T16:54:39Z")
> [@Mr. Blue Sky](#): > > It’s supposed to based on the Pontiac [Solstice](http://www.fast-autos.net/pontiac/pontiacsolstice.html) which is coming out this fall as a 2006 model. > > The Saturn (to be known as the [Sky](http://www.saturn.com/saturn/showroom/future_vehicles/sky.jsp?nav=710&flashOK=yes)) should be out the same time. Yeah, but they had a design for the Sky _before_ the Solstice was even concieved. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/23 "2005-05-30T17:01:32Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Except, of course, you’re forgetting the cynicism of many consumers when it comes to cars. … The history of the automobile is littered with good ideas that didn’t get picked up for decades (if ever) because of the shortsightedness of the auto industry execs. I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. Are you saying fuel cell technology is already mature enough to be put into production, and the people would buy them, but the auto makers are too short-sighted to actually make them? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/24 "2005-05-30T17:01:50Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Yeah, but they had a design for the Sky _before_ the Solstice was even concieved. [Johnny Carson]I did not know that![/JC] I like the angular look of the Sky. It kinda reminds me of the [Vauxhaul VX-220](http://www.seatonautomotive.co.uk/infosheets/Vauxhall_VX220_Roadster%20_16VSpecial.php) ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/25 "2005-05-30T18:12:19Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > I’m not sure what you’re trying to say. Are you saying fuel cell technology is already mature enough to be put into production, and the people would buy them, but the auto makers are too short-sighted to actually make them? No, I am saying that research on _any_ significant automotive improvements tend to only happen at the end of a gun barrel. The fuel cell was originally invented in the 1800s, but interest in them only started with the space race, automakers didn’t develop an interest in them until Federal regulations started pushing stricter environmental controls in the 1990s. The push for lower emissions had begun in the late 1960s, but the car makers fought them tooth and nail, rather than accepting them as inevitable and trying to figure out better ways of building cars. Fuel cells actually _are_ fairly mature, except in terms of cost. Right now, it’s simply too expensive to put them in cars, however, if the automakers had joined NASA in the 1960s in researching fuel cells, their cost might be significantly lower than what they are today. ---
**Author:** ![Imasquare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2005, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/26 "2005-05-30T23:56:13Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > My guess is never. The only reason people talk about fuel cells is because it’s comfortably far in the future. It allows politicians and auto makers to say “See, we’re serious about saving the environment!” without doing the actual hard work, just a token basic research. I think this reasoning only applies to the US industry. Japanese and European manufacturers are quite serious about moving on from the internal combustion engine and I think they will do it within 10 years. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/27 "2005-05-31T08:43:01Z")
> [@Unintentionally Blank](#): > > So, calling their rotary R&D work a **debacle** is characterizing it a little strongly Perhaps, but then I just had a hankering to use that word somewhere 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2005, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/28 "2005-05-31T11:33:48Z")
> [@Imasquare](#): > > I think this reasoning only applies to the US industry. Japanese and European manufacturers are quite serious about moving on from the internal combustion engine and I think they will do it within 10 years. I think that **scr4** is being a bit too cynical. GM and Ford have been pouring huge amounts of money into fuel cells. Both had prototypes of hydrogen-powered vehicles at the last auto show in Detroit. Everyone knows that eventually we need to come up with engines that use some other fuel source. And hybrid engines still use gasoline, albeit not as quickly as standard engines. Frankly, I think that the Toyota and Honda hybrids will be discontinued within five years, once people realize that the added cost of the vehicles is far beyond the point of diminishing returns. At best, they’ll be relegated to a small niche for hard-core environmentalists. The 10-year time frame for fuel cells sounds about right to me. ---
**Author:** ![sewalk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@sewalk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sewalk)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/29 "2005-06-01T02:03:03Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > \f I had a business, that’s what I’d do: Not allow people to have products they really want. If they want something similar, they can go to Toyota or Honda! Come on, **Johnny L.A.** , you know better. GM pulled all the EV-1s back because they had reached the end of their design lives and battery replacements were going to be necessary soon on most of the fleet. Since the program was operated at a huge loss for GM to test the technology and test cycle was over, corporate subsidy for the program was not going to continue. The high owner costs of operating the cars past the limited design life would likely have hurt GM’s reputation more than did removing them from service at the end of the lease terms. I’m just waiting for the screams from people that buy used Insights and Priuses when those vehicles fall out of warranty and those monster NiMH battery banks need replacing. TANSTAAFL ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/30 "2005-06-01T02:18:54Z")
> [@sewalk](#): > > I’m just waiting for the screams from people that buy used Insights and Priuses when those vehicles fall out of warranty and those monster NiMH battery banks need replacing. TANSTAAFL I did some quick googling, and supposedly the battery for the Honda Insight is warrantied for 8 years or 80,000 miles. After that, you’ve got to shell out $5000 (yes, five _thousand_ dollars) to replace it. :eek: If you own a Honda Insight, you might as well run it into the ground, because its resale value is going to be measured in cents. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/31 "2005-06-01T02:54:04Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > I think that **scr4** is being a bit too cynical. GM and Ford have been pouring huge amounts of money into fuel cells. Both had prototypes of hydrogen-powered vehicles at the last auto show in Detroit. Everyone knows that eventually we need to come up with engines that use some other fuel source. I wonder how much money is “huge amounts”? Prototypes can be pretty cheap. I’m still finding it hard to imagine this “hydrogen economy” taking off. Consider: [ul] [li]Hydrogen is a gas, and one of the more difficult to store. Energy density is low, unless it’s in the form of molecules which are liquid at room temperature.[/li][li]Lack of hydrogen refueling stations is a Catch-22: until there are enough hydrogen cars on the road, there won’t be very many refueling stations, and vice versa.[/li][li]Currently, most hyrogen is produced from natural gas, i.e. a fossil fuel. Converting from oil to hydrogen doesn’t eliminate CO2 emission.[/li][li]There are other alternative fuels available that don’t have the above problems. For example, biofuels (ethanol and biodiesel) can be used in conventional internal combustion engines, stored in conventional tanks, and do not add to atmospheric CO2. [/li][/ul] And in addition, there’s no strong reason to believe gas prices will rise enough in the next 10 years to make hydrogen cars attractive. Now, that’s only for _hydrogen_ fuel cells. I believe many companies are actually working on alcohol-powered fuel cells, which may be a practical alternative. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/32 "2005-06-01T03:00:22Z")
The problem comes from the production of biofuels…the fuel required to GROW the biomass and the fuel consumed to refine it to a useable state reportedy makes the use of alcohols rather cost prohibitive. That’s the thing about petroleum (and nuclear energy), you’re getting the benefit of energy storage that’s occurred over BILLIONS of years. This is NOT an easy problem to solve, anyone that says it is, is selling something. (Tornado, anyone? 😛 ) ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/33 "2005-06-01T03:21:40Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > I wonder how much money is “huge amounts”? Prototypes can be pretty cheap. IIRC, GMs spending around a billion on fuel cell cars. That’s the same amount of money GM spends to get a new model into production. > [@](#): > > I’m still finding it hard to imagine this “hydrogen economy” taking off. Consider: > [ul] > [li]Hydrogen is a gas, and one of the more difficult to store. Energy density is low, unless it’s in the form of molecules which are liquid at room temperature.[/li][li]Lack of hydrogen refueling stations is a Catch-22: until there are enough hydrogen cars on the road, there won’t be very many refueling stations, and vice versa.[/li][li]Currently, most hyrogen is produced from natural gas, i.e. a fossil fuel. Converting from oil to hydrogen doesn’t eliminate CO2 emission.[/li][li]There are other alternative fuels available that don’t have the above problems. For example, biofuels (ethanol and biodiesel) can be used in conventional internal combustion engines, stored in conventional tanks, and do not add to atmospheric CO2. [/li][/ul] Well, the oil companies have all said that they’ll start selling hydrogen once the car makers produce a car that can run on it. Given that I’ve seen tanker trucks hauling hydrogen on the interstates, getting it into gas stations shouldn’t be too difficult. The US has large reserves of natural gas, so using it in a fuel cell car will reduce our dependence on foreign oil. > [@](#): > > And in addition, there’s no strong reason to believe gas prices will rise enough in the next 10 years to make hydrogen cars attractive. I dunno, the war in Iraq isn’t exactly going smoothly at this point, and there’s some evidence that we’re pissing everyone off in that neighborhood enough to the point that they’re willing to take up arms against us. [King Fahd](http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=8632113)’s not doing well at the moment, and depending upon the health of his immediate heir (who’s in his **seventies** ), who knows which way power could transfer (and there’s _always_ the possibility of civil war breaking out)? So while I don’t expect gas prices to shoot up dramatically in the next 10 years, I wouldn’t be surprised if they did. > [@](#): > > Now, that’s only for _hydrogen_ fuel cells. I believe many companies are actually working on alcohol-powered fuel cells, which may be a practical alternative. I’ve not heard of alcohol powered fuel cells, but I’ve heard of methane, gasolene, and LNG fuel cells, so it’s possible. **Unintentionally Blank** , IIRC **Una** has crunched the numbers and found that biodiesel isn’t the energy loss that people think. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/34 "2005-06-01T04:09:48Z")
Hmm… It appears that although [Toyota](http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Darts/3036/uri.html) and [Daimler](http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0,,0-5-7154-1-391078-1-0-0-348452-0-0-135-7145-0-0-0-0-0-0-0,00.html) experimented with methanol (actually an onboard reformer that generates hydrogen from methanol), both have given up on this approach. So maybe I’m wrong. But that many companies are working on alcohol-powered fuel cells for portable electronics. I don’t know if that’s a different technology. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/35 "2005-06-01T04:33:30Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > Hmm… It appears that although [Toyota](http://www.geocities.co.jp/Playtown-Darts/3036/uri.html) and [Daimler](http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0,,0-5-7154-1-391078-1-0-0-348452-0-0-135-7145-0-0-0-0-0-0-0,00.html) experimented with methanol (actually an onboard reformer that generates hydrogen from methanol), both have given up on this approach. So maybe I’m wrong. > > But that many companies are working on alcohol-powered fuel cells for portable electronics. I don’t know if that’s a different technology. It may be the same, but no one might be thinking about applying it to cars (Ah, the age of specialization where no one knows WTF anyone else is talking about.). For the life of me, I can’t see why [this technolody](http://www.physorg.com/news4081.html) can’t be applied to making electric cars. Granted, a pacemaker battery is considerably smaller than a car battery, but sure it ought to be possible to scale it up for automotive applications. After all, an electric car has about 1,500 lbs of batteries, and even if you had to have _more_ than that it battery weight, it’d be worth it, seeing as how you wouldn’t have to recharge the car, but once every couple of **years** or so. (BTW, a pacemaker’s battery is about 1 Amp hour. I’ll let someone who knows what they’re doing crunch the numbers to see if it’s practical.) ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/36 "2005-06-01T11:39:10Z")
Dude, you want to put millions of radioactive batteries in the hands of the general public? Are you insane? ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/37 "2005-06-01T15:01:19Z")
> [@Diceman](#): > > Dude, you want to put millions of radioactive batteries in the hands of the general public? Are you insane? Nuclear power != Dangerous. Were you aware you have ‘Nuclear Waste’ in your Very Own Home? (Got a smoke detector?) There are a number of designs that are ‘meltdown proof’, and managing the waste is a solvable problem. It’s just that Nuclear power suffers from a PR image problem of biblical proportions. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/38 "2005-06-01T15:02:50Z")
Mark my words, some day, McDonalds will expand into biodiesel and have pumps next to the drive thru. After all, they’re just throwing it away now. 🙂 Suposedly 3 billion gallons of used vegetable oil are produced each year in the US. Its a drop in the bucket compared to annual US fuel consumption, but it’s practically free. Before you laugh consider: Kaiser Steel–\>Kaiser shipbuilding works (WWII Liberty ships)–\>Kaiser employee health care–\>Kaiser Permanente, Health Insurance Colossus ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/39 "2005-06-01T18:48:49Z")
> [@Unintentionally Blank](#): > > Nuclear power != Dangerous. > > Were you aware you have ‘Nuclear Waste’ in your Very Own Home? (Got a smoke detector?) > > There are a number of designs that are ‘meltdown proof’, and managing the waste is a solvable problem. But are those designs tamper-proof as well? A lump of radioactive material with enough energy to drive a car is potentially dangerous. There’ll be enough material in _each_ car to make a fairly nasty “dirty bomb”, and it will be overlooked by roadside radiation monitors. ---
**Author:** ![Unintentionally\_Blank](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/unintentionally_blank/32/5418_2.png) [@Unintentionally\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unintentionally_Blank)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2005, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035/40 "2005-06-01T19:05:16Z")
I’d imagine they wouldn’t come with an easy pull-tab for opening, if that’s what you’re thinking. _I’m_ thinking nuclear power could be used to crack water for Hydrogen…or charge more conventional batteries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-gm-wheres-your-hybrid-vehicle/306035.md?page=3)