# Say something nice about a pack of serial extortionists who are turning our gov't into a clown show **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 3, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980 "2013-01-03T17:48:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/41 "2013-01-03T21:30:09Z")
Through the magic of time travel and misattribution? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/42 "2013-01-03T21:33:56Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Through the magic of time travel and misattribution? 😃 You’re right. That one _was_ in response to **Sitnam’s** attempt to spread the blame for the current impass. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/43 "2013-01-03T21:47:37Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I’m not arguing against anger. I’m arguing against angry rhetoric. When I get mad, I donate money or time to the people I think will help things. I argue, civilly, with the people who are on the wrong side. Those things actually matter. Displays of anger only make you feel better. This is just a variation on the “liberals are so shrill!” line of attack. As in, “if only liberals weren’t so shrill, conservatives would stop calling them traitors and degenerates.” It’s right up there with, “gay people should avoid flaming out because it makes conservatives uncomfortable” and “women should avoid confrontations if they don’t want to be called bitches”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/44 "2013-01-03T21:53:44Z")
Reasoned discourse is for when the waiter serves you soup with a fly in it. When the waiter serves you a shit sandwich over and over again the time for reasoned discourse is over and the time for shoving that shit sandwich where the sun don’t shine has begun. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/45 "2013-01-03T22:02:26Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > This is just a variation on the “liberals are so shrill!” line of attack. As in, “if only liberals weren’t so shrill, conservatives would stop calling them traitors and degenerates.” It’s right up there with, “gay people should avoid flaming out because it makes conservatives uncomfortable” and “women should avoid confrontations if they don’t want to be called bitches”. Those arguments are all bad ones because the cause and effect relationship is false and, even if it were not, the cause involves an important personal freedom and the effect is irrational and the responsibility of the irrational party. By contrast, none of those things is true about the argument that angry rhetoric is less persuasive and just makes people angry. (This post brought to you by the people who respond civilly when being disingenuously compared to misogynistic homophobes.) ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/46 "2013-01-03T22:11:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > On the internet you call out those who give the standard “Both sides do it!” response and refuse to even go down that road with them-just say “That’s absolute bullshit. You know it and I know it, so drop it.” The only difference between this response, and a response omitting the “absolute bullshit” and replacing it with “false,” is the likelihood of getting the result you seek. Unnecessarily antagonizing your opponent accomplishes exactly nothing, other than making you feel a little better. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Get angry. Get angry in public. Stay angry. Vote angry. Does an angry vote count double? Does an angry dollar fund extra lobbying and litigation? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > When the waiter serves you a shit sandwich over and over again the time for reasoned discourse is over and the time for shoving that shit sandwich where the sun don’t shine has begun. Your mixed metaphor is conflating whether angry rhetoric is justified with whether angry rhetoric is useful. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/47 "2013-01-03T22:17:51Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Those arguments are all bad ones because the cause and effect relationship is false and, even if it were not, the cause involves an important personal freedom and the effect is irrational and the responsibility of the irrational party. By contrast, none of those things is true about the argument that angry rhetoric is less persuasive and just makes people angry. > > (This post brought to you by the people who respond civilly when being disingenuously compared to misogynistic homophobes.) That’s easy for a Misohomo gyniphobe to say! As for the OP, another aoternative is just ignore that thread altogether. No one really cares whether you want to participate or not. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/48 "2013-01-03T22:21:29Z")
**"who are turning our gov’t into a clown show"** Your use of the present tense is hereby mocked. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/49 "2013-01-03T22:26:12Z")
Angry voters organize and vote. Apathetic voters…don’t. The reason to say “bullshit” is to let it be known that you recognize it when you see it, and that shovelling any more of it into the conversation will not be mistaken as a simple misunderstanding on both sides. For some of us it is time not to be calm, and for others, well…“How’s your sandwich, sir? Would you like to try a cup of our finest piss?” ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/50 "2013-01-03T22:29:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Angry voters organize and vote. Apathetic voters…don’t. True, but irrelevant, since the question is whether non-apathetic people (i.e., those posting on a message board about politics) have anything to gain by angry rhetoric. So if you think apathetic folks are shaken out of apathy by tough talk about shit sandwiches and waiters’ assholes, then more power to you. I don’t think the apathetic third tunes out because the partisans aren’t belligerent enough. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/51 "2013-01-04T00:57:33Z")
I don’t really see the outrage. Sure one party is a bunch of corrupt warmongering corporate stooges who couldn’t care less about the common people (and the other party has Rs next to their names) but that’s the beauty of the system. Working as intended. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/52 "2013-01-04T01:12:29Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Nothing about being civil requires you to accept or defend the premise that Republicans are acting in good faith. You can argue, perfectly civilly, that Republicans are behaving badly–in bad faith even–when they negotiate by threatening to harm things they do not actually want to harm. Like what? They want to harm pretty much everything. Malice is one of their core values. > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The reasons to be civil are also pretty obvious. It’s more persuasive, since our political brains are pretty much ruled by tribal emotions. It’s more likely to lead to compromise. Being nice is good in and of itself. And if nothing else, recognizing your opponents good qualities keeps you from getting too blindered by your own partisan biases. By contrast, anger doesn’t accomplish much. It doesn’t persuade your opponents. It doesn’t make your vote count double. It doesn’t make friends. That’s simply not so. Anger works. That’s why the Left is constantly told these days to not get angry; not being angry makes them weak, and gets them stomped on by the Right which is angry. Anger is one of the most effect means of driving political change, good or bad. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > There’s a scene in _Duck Soup_ where Groucho agrees to make peace with Sylvania, to offer them his hand in friendship. But then he starts to imagine himself offering his hand in friendship only to have it rudely rejected by Sylvania. And he gets himself so worked up over the (imaginary) prospect that when the Sylvanian ambassador arrives, Groucho slaps him in the face, which brings the countries to the brink. A false analogy. The Republicans are raving fanatics who aren’t going to make peace. The reality is exactly the opposite; the Democrat keeps fantasizing that any day now the Republican will offer peace, while in the meantime the Republican has progressed from slapping the Democrat over and over to holding him down and punching him in the face repeatedly. And every so often taking a break to go over and rape his wife while punching her in the face and calling her a whore. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Finding something nice to say about other people does not necessarily involve sacrificing “the truth”, even if you find these people objectionable on many levels. Nonsense. It means pretending they are much better people they actually are, and amounts to cooperating with them to make yourself look worse than them since they certainly aren’t going to stop demonizing you. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Again, the point of civility is to enable yourself to live in peace and harmony with others who - whatever you think of them - exist and are a force in this country. Aka “diplomacy”. Can’t be done with these people. These are enemies; they aren’t interested in living in peace with anyone. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/53 "2013-01-04T01:31:49Z")
Totally convinced. No doubt about it, I’m going full Minnesota. No more Mr. Not Nice Guy! I’m taking out some crates, gonna pack up all my snark and harsh rhetoric. Maybe donate to the Badwill Store. Maybe just haul it up to the attic… OK, first step on my 12 step path to civility, done. Now, that second one there, about apologizing to all those people I’ve been harshly critical to? I dunno about that one, maybe could I get some slack on that, pay in installments? I’m not very good with that. Tell you what, can we put in a sanity clause? I’ll be good, so long as they don’t do something to deserve it? Then, I get a pass? Not something piddling, but really nasty, something corrupt and unjust. Something that would make Barry Goldwater and Thomas Paine rise simultaneously from their respective graves and puke their guts out. OK, its Thursday. What do you think, a week? Gee, that would be swell… ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/54 "2013-01-04T01:38:17Z")
Civil doesn’t mean boring or non-confrontational. It doesn’t exclude humor. It doesn’t even require you to be especially nice. It means not being a dick. It means not assuming the worst explanation or least supportable justification. It means that you focus on reasons, and when you question someone’s motives, you have a specific reason. And, for the fifth time, whether being civil is a more effective means to an end is entirely separate from whether being a dick is justified, or how the other guy acts. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/55 "2013-01-04T01:44:56Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Civil doesn’t mean boring or non-confrontational. Yes it does. That’s why oppressed groups are constantly told to “be civil” by their oppressors. It’s a way of saying “shut up and take it, scum” while making yourself look morally superior. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/56 "2013-01-04T01:45:49Z")
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.: The Great Oppressor. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/57 "2013-01-04T01:47:38Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.: The Great Oppressor. He seemed pretty angry to me. And Malcolm X had a point when he said “they talked to him, so they didn’t have to talk to me.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/58 "2013-01-04T01:48:04Z")
Clearly, you are a much more evolved person that I. Feel kinda bad about that, but I’ll get over it a lot sooner than I’ll do anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/59 "2013-01-04T01:51:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He seemed pretty angry to me. And Malcolm X had a point when he said “they talked to him, so they didn’t have to talk to me.” Maybe you should read about him some time, so you know how he felt about civility and the lengths he went to humanize his opponents. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980/60 "2013-01-04T01:52:19Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Clearly, you are a much more evolved person that I. Feel kinda bad about that, but I’ll get over it a lot sooner than I’ll do anything about it. You’re the one talking about self-righteousness and moral superiority. I’m talking about what works. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-something-nice-about-a-pack-of-serial-extortionists-who-are-turning-our-govt-into-a-clown-show/645980.md?page=4)