# Say that there really is an omnipotent God and an afterlife. Is it best that we don't know? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257 "2012-12-07T02:03:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/1 "2012-12-07T02:03:01Z")
Imagine that God is real, that he created everything and knows everything, and is immeasurably good and superior in every way to everything we’ve ever known. And he has provided an afterlife for some or all of us. In this _hypothetical_ situation . . . is it best that people don’t know about it? Is not revealing the big truth to us yet doing us a favor-- or not? FWIW, this is what C.S. Lewis thought, somewhat germane to the question: > [@](#): > > When the author walks onto the stage, the play is over. God is going to invade, all right; but what is the good of saying you are on His side then, when you see the whole natural universe melting away like a dream and something else comes crashing in? This time it will be God without disguise; something so overwhelming that it will strike either irresistible love or irresistible horror into every creature. It will be too late then to choose your side. That will not be the time for choosing; It will be the time when we discover which side we really have chosen, whether we realized it before or not. Now, today, this moment, is our chance to choose the right side. (Mere Christianity) So what do you think? Wish there were a polling feature in GD, but anyway. (I know many if most posters here won’t accept the idea in reality, but if we can talk at length about where the Blue Wizards ended up in Middle Earth, why not this?) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/2 "2012-12-07T02:17:51Z")
Well, whether we know or not, there isn’t a lot we could do about it, so best not to dwell on it. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/3 "2012-12-07T02:19:13Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Imagine that God is real, that he created everything and knows everything, and is immeasurably good and superior in every way to everything we’ve ever known. And he has provided an afterlife for some or all of us. > > In this _hypothetical_ situation . . . is it best that people don’t know about it? Is not revealing the big truth to us yet doing us a favor-- or not? > > FWIW, this is what C.S. Lewis thought, somewhat germane to the question: > > So what do you think? Wish there were a polling feature in GD, but anyway. > > (I know many if most posters here won’t accept the idea in reality, but if we can talk at length about where the Blue Wizards ended up in Middle Earth, why not this?) If there is a hell, then certainly it would be moral to tell us about it. If there isn’t a hell, but everyone gets an afterlife then it would be moral to tell us so that people wouldn’t overly mourn the dead. If there isn’t a hell, but only some get eternal life (and the rest oblivion) then it would be moral to tell us so that those who value eternal life could work to it. So yeah, He should tell us, unless He’s a prick playing games. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/4 "2012-12-07T02:19:52Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Imagine that God is real, that he created everything and knows everything, and is immeasurably good and superior in every way to everything we’ve ever known. And he has provided an afterlife for some or all of us. > > In this _hypothetical_ situation . . . is it best that people don’t know about it? Is not revealing the big truth to us yet doing us a favor-- or not? Considering that he’s supposedly holding us responsible in that afterlife for our beliefs and choices then yes, he’s doing wrong to withhold information from us. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/5 "2012-12-07T02:41:28Z")
In general, knowledge is nearly always preferable to ignorance. If the knowledge could help us to make better decisions, then it is certainly preferable. If God is some horrid Cthulhuesque monstrosity, infinitely malevolent, and the afterlife is worse than any image of hell any human writer has ever dreamed up, and there isn’t anything we can do about it…then, just perhaps, it might be as well that we don’t learn of it. It would be depressing, and wouldn’t offer any practical insights for choosing wisely. In fact, the wise course would simply be to go on living the best life we can, as long as we can. (Then again, this might be a good reason to let it be known: it might reduce war and violence, and lead us to be better people during our lifetimes.) ---
**Author:** ![monkeydoodle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@monkeydoodle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monkeydoodle)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/6 "2012-12-07T03:01:02Z")
Isn’t CS Lewis simply saying that human free will is the point of existence, and that any certain knowledge about God or an afterlife would erase our ability to choose good over evil in our everyday choices? In this case, lack of knowledge is a necessary component of this world. Otherwise, God would just create perfect beings that go directly to heaven. Or, more likely, not create anything at all - what would be the point from God’s pov? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/7 "2012-12-07T03:07:01Z")
> [@monkeydoodle](#): > > Isn’t CS Lewis simply saying that human free will is the point of existence, and that any certain knowledge about God or an afterlife would erase our ability to choose good over evil in our everyday choices? In this case, lack of knowledge is a necessary component of this world. Otherwise, God would just create perfect beings that go directly to heaven. Or, more likely, not create anything at all - what would be the point from God’s pov? A good god would just create a heaven and put perfect-as-possible beings in it; anything else is pointless sadism. ---
**Author:** ![monkeydoodle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@monkeydoodle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monkeydoodle)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/8 "2012-12-07T03:16:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A good god would just create a heaven and put perfect-as-possible beings in it; anything else is pointless sadism. Not really. Not if every human had within him the ability to choose good over evil. Pointless sadism would only be true if people really were _incapable_ of stopping themselves from doing the shit they do to each other. Then you gotta wonder why a God would want to create such a world. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/9 "2012-12-07T03:31:36Z")
> [@monkeydoodle](#): > > Not really. Not if every human had within him the ability to choose good over evil. A dilemma that would only be there as a deliberate imperfection, which makes it questionable if it really is “evil” in the first place if we’re just being puppet-mastered by a god into “choosing evil”. > [@monkeydoodle](#): > > Pointless sadism would only be true if people really were _incapable_ of stopping themselves from doing the shit they do to each other. Then you gotta wonder why a God would want to create such a world. Sadism. And it isn’t necessary for us to be incapable of stopping ourselves; the fact that we are so poorly designed as to have such desires in the first place is a condemnation of any creator. Our instincts don’t match what a benevolent creator would put into a species; nor do our surroundings match where a benevolent creator would place its creation. They aren’t even close. ---
**Author:** ![monkeydoodle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@monkeydoodle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monkeydoodle)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/10 "2012-12-07T05:14:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A dilemma that would only be there as a deliberate imperfection, which makes it questionable if it really is “evil” in the first place if we’re just being puppet-mastered by a god into “choosing evil”. Thing is, we’ve constructed our world around an understanding of good and evil, so those terms have been defined (or are in continual process of being defined). If evil doesn’t really exist, then why do we have notions of right vs wrong? Is that part of this god’s sadistic cruelty - giving humans a conscience so that we fight a losing battle for eternity? It really doesn’t seem logical for a purely sadistic God to create a humanity with a sense of justice. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/11 "2012-12-07T05:38:33Z")
> [@monkeydoodle](#): > > If evil doesn’t really exist, then why do we have notions of right vs wrong? Because it’s useful in Darwinian terms for the survival of the species. > [@monkeydoodle](#): > > Is that part of this god’s sadistic cruelty - giving humans a conscience so that we fight a losing battle for eternity? It really doesn’t seem logical for a purely sadistic God to create a humanity with a sense of justice. A god doesn’t have to be “purely sadistic” to be evil. It _does_ have to be either evil or indifferent to create us and the world we are in. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/12 "2012-12-07T05:46:07Z")
Of course it’s best that we know - if there is an afterlife, and it is pleasant, it would be a crime to make it anything less than **crystal clear** as to what it is and how to attain it. Since this hasn’t happen, either it doesn’t exist or God is a dick. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/13 "2012-12-07T05:48:20Z")
> [@monkeydoodle](#): > > . . . It really doesn’t seem logical for a purely sadistic God to create a humanity with a sense of justice. It could work; the sadism involves giving humanity the tiniest little glimpse of betterment…and then dashing it horribly. Really elegant sadism requires victims with a high degree of sensitivity. The artistic monster doesn’t just bludgeon his victims; that’s much too simplistic. I don’t think at all that this is the actual explanation, but it could be considered to make an ugly, awful kind of logical sense. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/14 "2012-12-07T06:06:43Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > It could work; the sadism involves giving humanity the tiniest little glimpse of betterment…and then dashing it horribly. Really elegant sadism requires victims with a high degree of sensitivity. The artistic monster doesn’t just bludgeon his victims; that’s much too simplistic. > > I don’t think at all that this is the actual explanation, but it could be considered to make an ugly, awful kind of logical sense. Hmmmm. Reminds me of some short story I read many years ago, in which an evil version of God took a special delight in condemning his own followers to eternal suffering because of the dashing of their false hopes and the extra suffering caused by their feelings of betrayal. And made a point of telling them that’s why he did it before condemning them. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/15 "2012-12-07T06:42:57Z")
Fun story! (Yikes!) Another story where an entity intelligently operates to maximize the unhappiness of its victims is Harlan Ellison’s classic “I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream.” Brilliant (ick!) story. Even so, I think I would rather know than not know. The knowledge would be effing depressing, but it would, at least, focus my dislike. I wouldn’t have to curse the blind, uncaring fates. I could, instead, curse the adversary. It wouldn’t do any good, I suppose… ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/16 "2012-12-07T07:10:52Z")
If there was an omnipotent (and I’m assuming you are eliding over, omnipresent and omniscient) god then there would be no question as to whether we’d know about him or not - his existence would be as obvious as an erupting volcano in the middle of town. So IMO the question is moot. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/17 "2012-12-07T07:23:33Z")
> [@Askance](#): > > If there was an omnipotent (and I’m assuming you are eliding over, omnipresent and omniscient) god then there would be no question as to whether we’d know about him or not - his existence would be as obvious as an erupting volcano in the middle of town. So IMO the question is moot. How so? ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/18 "2012-12-07T07:30:52Z")
I thought I was being clear … if such a god existed it would be impossible to not know he existed (absent mental illness). Consequently the question of whether it’s best we know or not know does not arise, since we’d all already know. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/19 "2012-12-07T07:56:33Z")
> [@monkeydoodle](#): > > Thing is, we’ve constructed our world around an understanding of good and evil, so those terms have been defined (or are in continual process of being defined). If evil doesn’t really exist, then why do we have notions of right vs wrong? Is that part of this god’s sadistic cruelty - giving humans a conscience so that we fight a losing battle for eternity? It really doesn’t seem logical for a purely sadistic God to create a humanity with a sense of justice. Actually there are sociopaths who don’t have an understanding of good and evil. If God really cared about free will so much, they wouldn’t be around. Plus there are plenty of examples of evil - cheating on a spouse, stealing, saying nasty things on message boards - that don’t involve anyone dying. Many of us are limited in free will in that we couldn’t kill someone in cold blood for no reason. Why not make everyone like that. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2012, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257/20 "2012-12-07T08:01:20Z")
> [@monkeydoodle](#): > > Isn’t CS Lewis simply saying that human free will is the point of existence, and that any certain knowledge about God or an afterlife would erase our ability to choose good over evil in our everyday choices? In this case, lack of knowledge is a necessary component of this world. Otherwise, God would just create perfect beings that go directly to heaven. Or, more likely, not create anything at all - what would be the point from God’s pov? Except that in the Bible, which Lewis believed in, God did give certain knowledge to all of Israel during the Exodus. At least certain enough. And we don’t need to see all of God’s supposed glory. Maybe a little hint would do, or at least consistent commands. If parents never told kids what they really wanted, or told them wildly varying things, and then beat the child for not doing the “right” thing they’d be considered abusive, and the kids would be taken away. Maybe that is what happened to our God. The workers at a cosmic Child People Protective Services found out what he was doing to us, and hauled him off to the pokey. I’m sure that whenever they finish the paperwork they’ll take care of these floods and earthquakes he left us with. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-that-there-really-is-an-omnipotent-god-and-an-afterlife-is-it-best-that-we-dont-know/643257.md?page=2)