# Say the states that wanted to secede did. Then what? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 15, 2013, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272 "2013-10-15T02:19:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272/81 "2013-11-11T12:47:34Z")
I’d like to see a “put up or shut up” Constitutional amendment. It would give any state a seven-year window to secede, and if they didn’t take advantage of that window, then they had their chance, and time to shut up. I’d put some conditions on the secession: first, I’d require proof of an enduring majority in favor of secession, in the form of having to win referenda in two consecutive even-year elections during the seven-year window without losing such a referendum at any time. And counties in the seceding states that voted against secession both times would remain in the USA. Movable property of the USA, other than those things needed to insure continuity of government and governmental services, would be moved from the seceding states back into the USA proper, but buildings and other permanent structures would be left intact. (E.g. if North Dakota seceded, they’d get to keep a bunch of runways and empty missile silos, but the nuclear warheads, missiles, and B-52s would return to the USA. They’d also get all USPS property in ND, and things like Social Security and Medicare records for all their citizens.) The responsibility for the national debt would remain entirely with the USA proper: nobody loaned money to the USA with the expectation that it would wind up being backed only by some breakaway republic. Without the Dumbass States Formerly of America holding the rest of us back, the rest of us would do well enough so that wouldn’t be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272/82 "2013-11-11T13:14:45Z")
It’s cool to brand a whole set of states as “dumbasses”–but we’re supposed to regard the people who have been told repeatedly that \*no \*states want to secede as “intelligent”… Yes, we realize you’d like the Whiter USA that would result. But you’re not getting it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272/83 "2013-11-11T15:02:18Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Yes, we realize you’d like the Whiter USA that would result. But you’re not getting it. I think most of the ones who want a whiter USA live in states that would make the USA whiter by seceding. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272/84 "2013-11-11T15:12:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **RTFirefly** : > > I’d like to see a “put up or shut up” Constitutional amendment. It would give any state a seven-year window to secede, and if they didn’t take advantage of that window, then they had their chance, and time to shut up. We already have that, except that the window is zero years. States cannot secede, period, end of story. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272/85 "2013-11-11T15:44:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > We already have that, except that the window is zero years. States cannot secede, period, end of story. \ Yes they could, if the Constitution was amended to specifically allow it. That’s what most of this thread has been about. Or are you claiming that a perpetual Union is **super** -Constitutional, beyond all reconsideration? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272/86 "2013-11-11T16:42:17Z")
Well, yes, we could amend the Constitution to allow for voluntary secession, but I got the impression that **RTFirefly** was intending for his proposed amendment to be an impediment to secession, not an aid to it. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272/87 "2013-11-11T17:19:08Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Well, yes, we could amend the Constitution to allow for voluntary secession, but I got the impression that **RTFirefly** was intending for his proposed amendment to be an impediment to secession, not an aid to it. Sorry if I gave you the wrong impression. I would have it be an aid to secession, for a very finite length of time. If you want out, there’s the door - but you can’t dawdle in the doorway indefinitely. And if you don’t leave, then kwitcherbitchen, you had your chance. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272/88 "2013-11-11T17:52:16Z")
> [@Gedd](#): > > We can’t have that! “Fifty” and “nifty” rhyme so well! What, pray tell, rhymes with “Fifty-one?” Curses to those in northern Colorado today! _Playin’ solitaire 'til dawn With a deck of fifty-one_ OK, hardly an exact rhyme, but in the nearly 50 years since that song was on the air, nobody’s noticed much. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272/89 "2013-11-11T17:58:31Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > It’s cool to brand a whole set of states as “dumbasses”–but we’re supposed to regard the people who have been told repeatedly that \*no \*states want to secede as “intelligent”… > > Yes, we realize you’d like the Whiter USA that would result. But you’re not getting it. Why would I want a whiter USA? I rather enjoy being part of a pluralistic society. And certainly the states in the “most likely to secede” group are politically dominated by whites, regardless of their actual composition. And under my amendment, chances are good that the counties that seceded back into the U.S. would include the more minority-heavy areas of those white-dominated states. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272/90 "2013-11-11T20:34:50Z")
Oh, I didn’t notice the bit about individual counties being able to stay. That could be… complicated. You’d end up with enclaves of the US, wholly surrounded by other countries. That’s bad enough already, but to make it worse, there would probably be whole states that would consist entirely of such enclaves. Would we end up needing to organize an “Austin Airlift”? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272/91 "2013-11-11T20:40:47Z")
I believe the CSA forsaw the same problem. If your country is formed of states that left another country, now could you justify preventing them from leaving yours? You’d have states or areas leaving over the current farm bill, for example. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272/92 "2013-11-12T01:30:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Oh, I didn’t notice the bit about individual counties being able to stay. That could be… complicated. You’d end up with enclaves of the US, wholly surrounded by other countries. That’s bad enough already, but to make it worse, there would probably be whole states that would consist entirely of such enclaves. Would we end up needing to organize an “Austin Airlift”? Here is the thing: Arizona, for example is a state because the US recognizes it as such. Once a secession is petitioned and accepted (because Arizona did not unilaterally declare itself a state, hence it _must ask_ to be excused), the US no longer recognizes it as a state. What then is it? As no longer being a US state, would it magically become the sovereign nation of Arizona, with the same borders? On what basis? You see, secession means a state is no longer a state – if some counties want to exit, to join, say, New Mexico or Utah, why would the US say no-can-do? I mean, at this point, Arizona is not a state, it is just an amorphous bit of land, crawling with apparently cranky people. How they would hope to maintain the respect of the US as an independent political entity is difficult to envision. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272/93 "2013-11-12T17:13:58Z")
Presumably the same movement that led to secession would also include the region becoming a new independent nation, though the details would be their problem, not ours. As to how they’d maintain our _respect_, well, they probably wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272/94 "2013-11-12T19:36:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The numbers are [larger](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_secession_movements#Other_discussions_of_secession_starting_in_2012) than that, although still a minority. An important caveat to that, though - Rasmussen Reports does land line surveys and doesn’t do cellphone surveys, in an age where many people have abandoned land lines altogether. Doing a survey of land lines owners and omitting cellphones is going to skew the results towards older, more conservative and more rural numbers. Overreliance on land line surveys made many a head asplode after the 2012 election: exit polls showed that a third of voters did not have land lines, and voters without land lines favored Obama by 11 points, 54% Obama to 43% Romney. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272/95 "2013-11-13T16:07:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The numbers are [larger](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_secession_movements#Other_discussions_of_secession_starting_in_2012) than that, although still a minority. The wiki article’s summary of the poll is pretty misleading. The poll didn’t ask whether the respondent supported or opposed Texas becoming an independent nation. It asked [“Do you think Texas would be better off as an independent nation or as part of the United States of America?”](http://web.archive.org/web/20090426053546/http://www.dailykos.com/statepoll/2009/4/22/TX/288). That’s not at all the same thing. Consider that in every thread about secession, there are posters who claim that the United States would be better off without the South, or Texas, or whatever political subdivision they dislike. That doesn’t mean they are advocating secession (or ejection). ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272/96 "2013-11-13T18:04:19Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > The RSA would fail almost immediately since it would be composed entirely of a citizenry who feel zero obligation at all to pay taxes to support a government. It would devolve pretty much straight into a redneck Mad Max zone. Probably with Ted Cruz as The Humungus. This is just nonsense. Take a look at actual red state governments. Do you see any red states that have zero income or sales taxes? Do you see any actual libertarian/anarchist red states? Do you see any red states with legislatures that refuse to build roads or fund schools? In Texas, Barack Obama got 41% of the vote in the 2012 election. In Georgia he got 45%. In South Carolina he got 44%. In Mississippi he got 43%. In North Carolina he got 48%. And in Virginia he got 51%. So is Virginia a “Red State”? Because according to the last Presidential election it’s a Blue state. Of course this is all silly. There is no constituency for Secession in any state, besides an extremely tiny minority. And for secession to actually happen you’d have to have more than just 50.0001% of the population be in favor of secession, you’d need a supermajority, and you wouldn’t need people who just vaguely supported secession you’d need lots and lots of people who were passionately committed to secession, and you’d need people with actual political power, wealth and influence who wanted secession. Secession in 1861 was driven by the rich and powerful because slavery was the source of their wealth, and the preservation of slavery was under threat. So rather than face the potential of losing the source of their wealth, they decided to secede. What would drive secession in 2013? Which rich and powerful people are threatened by the federal government, such that leaving the United States seems like the only way to preserve their wealth and power? Cause it seems to me that the wealthy and powerful are doing just fine under the current regime. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272/97 "2013-11-13T19:30:51Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > This is just nonsense. Take a look at actual red state governments. Do you see any red states that have zero income or sales taxes? Do you see any actual libertarian/anarchist red states? Do you see any red states with legislatures that refuse to build roads or fund schools? > > In Texas, Barack Obama got 41% of the vote in the 2012 election. In Georgia he got 45%. In South Carolina he got 44%. In Mississippi he got 43%. In North Carolina he got 48%. And in Virginia he got 51%. Funny you should mention Texas since it’s a great example of a red state that is NOT paying for infrastructure: [Texas converts paved roads to gravel](http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/08/19/2490151/texas-converts-80-miles-of-paved-road-to-gravel-thanks-to-lack-of-funds/) > [@](#): > > According to America’s Infrastructure report card, 38 percent of Texas’s roads are in poor to mediocre condition. > > After three special legislative sessions, lawmakers approved a constitutional amendment that does not raise taxes, but asks voters to determine diverting money to a rainy day fund for transportation. Emphasis added. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272/98 "2013-11-13T19:52:04Z")
> [@DrumBum](#): > > A somewhat different twist on this topic are [counties that want to break away](http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-10-14/why-are-so-many-counties-trying-to-secede-from-their-states). As the article notes, their chance of success is pretty low. It could be that this would be allowed as a compromise if Puerto Rico wanted to become a state. PR as a state could lean heavily Democratic so an existing state would be allowed to split as a compromise…like Northern California. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272/99 "2013-11-14T05:43:44Z")
The Colorado secession thing is dreadfully unbalanced on the face of it. The five counties voting to secede could not form a legitimate state on their own, as the new state’s population would be about 30K: the least populous state today is Wyoming (that surprised me, Alaska has grown a bit) with close to 17x the people, yet this new state would have two senators and one congressman. The Rs would love that play, but getting the rest of the country onboard would be a challenge. Everybody just needs to learn to make concessions instead of all of us trying to get it _our_ way. If that means mollifying the extremists with a bone or two, we really ought to be doing that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-the-states-that-wanted-to-secede-did-then-what/671272.md?page=4)