# Say vagina, get suspended **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 6, 2007, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864 "2007-03-06T22:10:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/221 "2007-03-09T14:29:15Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] Was there anyone besides the principal who made this decision prior to the presentation? [/quote] Honestly? I don’t know. But the principal is the one who gets to make decisions of that sort. If you, as a student, parent, interested third party or rabble rouser wants that policy changed, then you need to petition those who put it in place. Not sure who that might be in the cited instance, but around here it’s the school board who implements policy. The flip side of that question is who do _you_ think should have made the decision in conjunction with the principal. Keeping in mind, natch, that the principal should be the final arbiter of what gets presented in his or her school. > [@](#): > > There is nothing dirty or evil or charged about the word _vagina_. Nor has a single person contributing to this thread claimed anything of the sort. The issue, once again, is the girls breaking their word to the school administration. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/222 "2007-03-09T14:32:35Z")
[QUOTE=Martiju] PS. You really think that the one with years of dealing with parents, etc. is the one with the unbiased, unblinkered position? I would suggest exactly the opposite. [/QUOTE] Fair enough. As I put it to **Zoe** : Who do you think should be making final decisions on what gets presented at a high school? And to expand: Should those decisions take into account the anticipated audience and be based accordingly? ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/223 "2007-03-09T14:32:36Z")
[QUOTE=GLWasteful] Nor has a single person contributing to this thread claimed anything of the sort. The issue, once again, is the girls breaking their word to the school administration. [/QUOTE] Well I said much the same thing. My point being a slightly more subtle in that it was through fear that the word might offend that, presumably, the Principal was acting from. That might not necessarily be the right (read moral, ethical or pedagogical) perspective to come from. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/224 "2007-03-09T14:35:28Z")
[QUOTE=GLWasteful] Who do you think should be making final decisions on what gets presented at a high school? [/QUOTE] Ooh! Ooh! Can I answer? Brats who can’t follow simple instructions. ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/225 "2007-03-09T14:36:43Z")
[QUOTE=tdn] Ooh! Ooh! Can I answer? Brats who can’t follow simple instructions. [/QUOTE] Oh come on! Are you really struggling to read the actual words people are saying here! ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/226 "2007-03-09T15:00:23Z")
[QUOTE=Martiju] Well I said much the same thing. My point being a slightly more subtle in that it was through fear that the word might offend that, presumably, the Principal was acting from. That might not necessarily be the right (read moral, ethical or pedagogical) perspective to come from. [/QUOTE] Yeah, subtlety has never been my strong suit. And once again, the word “vagina” is perfectly acceptable. If anything, I think that the administration didn’t see this coming for some odd reason or another, and disallow the reading at an Open Mic Night. Not because the word is dirty, or naughty, or shameful, but because of the anticipated audience and potential backlash. Inre that last one, well. . . > [@tdn](#): > > Ooh! Ooh! Can I answer? > > Brats who can’t follow simple instructions. I know you’re kidding, but I seriously wonder if there aren’t people who feel precisely that way. I remember getting pissed as hell at the principal and vice principal in school, and getting my ass into some serious trouble over disagreements with members of staff and administration. I also remember calmly pointing out to a teacher that what she said in open class was slanderous and that there existed a clause in her contract that prohibited same. (it wasn’t that specific, but it was there) Made me feel empowered and wonderful. Now, in order to ascertain that her contract forbade her from slandering entire student groups, I had to make an appointment with the superintendent and calmly talk with him about what had happened and all like that. Acting in a grown-up (gah, a term that I still dislike) fashion not only assured that the outcome was what I wanted (a public apology to the group slandered in front of the class to whom she had originally said it), but that the teacher in question had no alternative but to do it. All because I had not approached the situation in a hot-headed fashion (which I can assure you was my wont) and had made damned certain that all my t’s were crossed and i’s dotted. And since I failed to do so earlier, all thanks **tdn** , for finding the precise poem in question. It’s been a while since I saw the show and had forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/227 "2007-03-09T15:13:24Z")
[QUOTE=Martiju] Oh come on! Are you really struggling to read the actual words people are saying here! [/QUOTE] Umm… no, why do you ask? For the reading-impaired, the post you responded to was sarcasm. It’s up to the principal of the school to define the rules, not the students. I am perfectly fine with students having input to the rules, of course. I think it’s important that they do. And I would hope that they would question the hell out of authority. But make no mistake. What these girls did was not striking a blow for women’s rights. It was a simple case of childish brattery. ---
**Author:** ![Martiju](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e8c25b/32.png) [@Martiju](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martiju)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/228 "2007-03-09T15:15:37Z")
[QUOTE=tdn] But make no mistake. What these girls did was not striking a blow for women’s rights. It was a simple case of childish brattery. [/QUOTE] So it wasn’t sarcasm then. And, I personally have not argued at all that this was a blow to women’s rights. Neither have I argued that it wasn’t brattery - just that it may well not be the case and, at the end of the day, that is hardly the point. Never mind! ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/229 "2007-03-09T15:16:19Z")
[QUOTE=GLWasteful] I know you’re kidding, but I seriously wonder if there aren’t people who feel precisely that way. [/QUOTE] In this very thread, in fact. > [@](#): > > And since I failed to do so earlier, all thanks **tdn** , for finding the precise poem in question. It’s been a while since I saw the show and had forgotten. You’re welcome. I’m glad to do it. The thread was getting a bit thin on facts. And to keep with the hijack, no one wants a fella with a social disease. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/230 "2007-03-09T15:17:37Z")
Don’t tell me, tell Officer Krupke! ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/231 "2007-03-09T15:33:55Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] **WhyNot** generally makes good points but > [@](#): > > I don’t care why kids learn to buck authority, I’m just glad they do. Really? I do care why. Question authority: always. Lie? Betray trust? Decide that you have the right to impose your assessment of what is right upon everyone else? No. Disregard the authority? No. [/QUOTE] That’s a fantastic question, and I’m actually glad I didn’t see it before I went to bed last night, because I’ve had time to think about it with freshly awake brain. And the conclusion I’ve come to is: “Yes, really.” Lemme 'splain. I’ve got kids. I see how they learn. They learn by performing experiments like little scientists. They try something, they see what happens, they try something else. In the best possible world, the “what happens” unfolds naturally, without a lot of bizarre unrelated punishments. My two year old loves her stacking cups. When she tries to stack a big one on a little one, it won’t stack. It covers it up instead. So she learns to stack a little one on a big one instead, if she wants a tower. If I smack her hand or give her a time out (and please realize I would never do this!) when she tries to put a big on a little, she’ll eventually obey, but she won’t internalize the same physics and geometry lesson from it. The way we learn doesn’t change a whole lot as we grow. Teens are experimenting with social “rules”, more than physical ones, but the same idea is there: let them suffer the social consequences of their actions until they figure out how the world works. In this case, the consequence was an in school suspension for disobeying the principal. That’s why I applaud and support the principal just as much as I applaud and support the girls. He’s providing a rational, reasonable and fairly natural consequence to their actions…AND he’s focusing on the more important transgression - the disobedience (as opposed to the word.) Exactly what “cause” they choose to champion to learn that lesson is pretty irrelevant to me. I’m just glad they’re learning to question authority. But yes, I do have a line as far as \*\*methodology \*\*goes, and that would be causing physical harm or threatening the physical safety of others. I wouldn’t condone it if they decided to brandish a sharpened knife at a three year old or disable all the fire alarms to prove they could. But words and ideologies? Bring it on, baby. We could all stand to air out our dusty assumptions and examine them in the light of day once in a while. Some we decide to keep, and fold neatly before tucking back in our subconscious. Others get consigned to the rag bin or hurriedly destroyed before anyone else can see them! [QUOTE=tdn] But make no mistake. What these girls did was not striking a blow for women’s rights. It was a simple case of childish brattery. [/QUOTE] How do you know that? I agree it’s possible, but their words don’t sound petulant or bratty to me. They sound fairly well thought out, at the very least previously discussed: > [@](#): > > But they say they were willing to suffer the consequences in the name of artistic freedom of expression. > > “The word vagina has been arbitrarily declared taboo, which it’s not,” student Megan Reback said. “It’s a part of the body. We are women. We have vaginas.” > > “We figured to uphold the integrity of the piece, of the monologue and of what we believe, that it was the right thing to keep the monologue the way it was written,” Elan Stahl said. > \ > “It’s not our poem to take a stanza out of,” Reback said. “It’s Eve Ensler’s poem. If she wants to take a stanza out, then that’s her decision.” > > [http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=local&id=5095709](http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=local&id=5095709) So they were definitely focused on it from a women’s empowerment (if not rights) angle, as well as an artistic integrity angle. Doesn’t really sound all that bratty. Do I think they’re going to become the Rosa Parkses of vaginas? Probably not. But just because you can only affect a small change is no reason to refrain from taking a stand. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/232 "2007-03-09T15:37:44Z")
[QUOTE=tdn] It was a simple case of childish brattery. [/QUOTE] And given the off-color subject, clearly it’s rather a salty brattery. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/233 "2007-03-09T16:00:07Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] How do you know that? I agree it’s possible, but their words don’t sound petulant or bratty to me. They sound fairly well thought out, at the very least previously discussed: [/QUOTE] In fact, I don’t know that, and your point is well made. Their response to the press was indeed very mature and sensible. As were those of the principal and superintendant. Quick anecdote time: Years ago I became romantically involved with a school teacher. She taught high school Spanish. Somehow or other, it became known to her students that she was dating someone. She told me that her students would talk to her in class about me. In my imagination, I thought they were saying things like “So what does your young man do for a living?” or “That’s so sweet” or “Is he handsome?” In fact, it turns out that they were saying “Miss B has a boyfriend, neener neener neener! That’s so gay!” It was a case of 16, 17, and 18 year olds acting like they were six. When I read the account of the vagina, I imagined that they said, or implied, “VAGINA! Neener neener neener!” Like they were getting away with saying a bad word in front of an audience. It seemed little different than a younger child writing “pee pee” on a desk and feeling very clever for it. Why did I make this assumption? Because all three girls said vagina at the same time. It strikes me as the girls pre-planned an opportunity to say a “bad” word as a way to get back at the mean old principal. Just childish. I may be wrong. If this were captured and posted to YouTube, it might clear up a number of questions. As it stands, I’d be far more impressed with the girls if the one who was reading the phrase in question had said “vagina” on her own, as a mere part of the reading. That would have been an act of civil disobediance that I would respect a lot more. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/234 "2007-03-09T16:08:57Z")
> [@](#): > > “The word vagina has been arbitrarily declared taboo, which it’s not,” student Megan Reback said. “It’s a part of the body. We are women. We have vaginas.” > > “We figured to uphold the integrity of the piece, of the monologue and of what we believe, that it was the right thing to keep the monologue the way it was written,” Elan Stahl said. > \ > “It’s not our poem to take a stanza out of,” Reback said. “It’s Eve Ensler’s poem. If she wants to take a stanza out, then that’s her decision.” [ol]I’m a man. I have a penis and testicles. There is a time and a place to talk about them. Merely saying that it’s part of my body is beside the point.[\*]Like no-one else ever recited an abridged poem. But if that’s too much for your artisitic integrity to swallow, then don’t agree that you’re going to abridge it, and then welsh on the deal which was all that netted you permission to perform the piece in the first place.[/ol] ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/235 "2007-03-09T16:13:54Z")
**WhyNot** , first of all your analogy seeems to suggest that you care that they learn to _not_ buck authority. To learn that like a big cup won’t stack on top of the smallest cup, just so bucking authority won’t work. Is that really what you mean? And is that what they are learning, or are they being rewarded with attention and support for their disrespect of the principal? Support for their actions is teaching them and other students that ignoring what those in authority say and lieing to them is okay if you feel like it. But anyway, let’s see how far your lack of concern for the why goes. Let’s say that these kids decided that saying various racial epithets was appropriate … saying doing a bit out of “Spicorama” (a real show) … or just a slew of various epithets … in front of a family night crowd. Spin it both ways … out of hate for the various groups (perhaps supported in their community) or out of desire to show that these words should not have power over us, both ways. They felt it was the right thing to do. Does the why really not matter? Is all that matters that they are bucking authority and learning consequences so they should be applauded for it? So long as it is just ideology and words? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/236 "2007-03-09T16:18:52Z")
[QUOTE=aclubs] Parents and others who care for children should be the ones making the decisions as to when is the best time to introduce sensitive topics to their kids. [/quote] Which again begs the question of what is wrong with the correct term of a girl’s “pee-pee.” > [@](#): > > And yes, “vagina” is most assuredly in a different category than “elbow.” Yeah, they’re both clinical. But I think we can all agree that only the most willfully ignorant person would believe that contemporary American society treats elbows and vaginas the same. And I think we can all agree that only the most willfully ignorant person would believe that people are saying these are the same. Sorry, let me take that back. Not only are people who think this willfully ignorant, they are are also lacking grey matter. ---
**Author:** ![ArizonaTeach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/45deac/32.png) [@ArizonaTeach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ArizonaTeach)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/237 "2007-03-09T16:40:01Z")
Well, here’s a wrench. According to [this NYTimes article,](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/08/nyregion/08vagina.html?_r=1&oref=slogin) the girls say they never made an agreement with the principal. Now, I personally find that hard to believe, but I’d like to hear other reactions. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/238 "2007-03-09T16:48:49Z")
[QUOTE=ArizonaTeach] the girls say they never made an agreement with the principal. [/QUOTE] Well that’s interesting. Too bad the article didn’t include an exact quote. But to me it doesn’t make sense because they admitted to wilfully doing what they were told not to. I suppose it could be that they were commanded not to use the word, and they simply said nothing in response. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/239 "2007-03-09T17:08:44Z")
[QUOTE=tdn] . . .no one wants a fella with a social disease. [/QUOTE] Krup you. And I’ll get to the NYT article in a bit. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2007, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/240 "2007-03-09T17:18:06Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] They shoulda said “Bagel” : [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8337959#post8337959](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=8337959#post8337959) [/QUOTE] [Ahem](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8337198&postcount=207) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864.md?page=13)