# Say vagina, get suspended **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 6, 2007, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864 "2007-03-06T22:10:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/61 "2007-03-07T03:35:18Z")
[QUOTE=GLWasteful] Well, since they weren’t _performing_ the show, then odds are there were precious few indications that the show was being, y’know, performed. As to reading it as written: sounds wonderful, provided they didn’t agree upfront that they would not. If the oh so onerous strictures get youir bloomers in a twist, raise hell right fucking then. If reading the selections as written is so important, then don’t agree to do it in another fashion. Frightfully simple, really. Yeah, sensibilities. And no, I’m not kidding you. Frankly, I wouldn’t care if my daughter heard someone else using proper terminology for vagina, penis, chlamydia or any number of other things. But I’m kinda funny inasmuch as I recognize that not everyone is as hip and groovy as I am, and wouldn’t try to piss off a group of parents as well as administrators by openly lying that I would do something in a given way, then do it opposite during performance. Christ in a truck! I’m terribly unaccustomed to being the voice of responsibility. I gotta do a few rails of heroin, knock back a coupla cocktails, then drive somewhere just to shake this feeling off. [/QUOTE] Have you ever seen the Vagina Monologues? It’s not really a performance with dancing vagina’s that’s acted out or anything. It’s a series of, well monologues based on interviews with real women. How can you not use the word, or what word would you use? Why let them do it in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/62 "2007-03-07T03:50:49Z")
I, just like so many others, wish like hell that it were made clear what term was supposed to be used in place of “vagina”. [QUOTE=guizot] I wonder what they did to the football coach who quoted Shakespeare. [/QUOTE] They cut off his testicles, natch. [QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] There is nothing offensive about the word “vagina.” It’s not offensive to toddlers. It’s not offensive to parents or old people or nuns. [/quote] Agreed, wholeheartedly. Just as your own daughter, mine learned proper terminology at an early age. I don’t think that the _term_ is offensive at all, What _is_ offensive is that someone would agree to act in a given way, then act in precisely the opposite way and think that they were being shat upon when they got called on it. > [@](#): > > It’s just not an objectionable word and the principal’s concerns are phony. No, it’s not. And no, they’re not. A principal has to juggle a crapload of interests. A lot of them are absolute bullshit, but they still need to be juggled. To dismiss the principal’s concerns is to be shortsighted and willfully ignorant. > [@](#): > > It’s no different than deciding that “elbow” or “navel” are sensitive words and asking kids not to say them. Waitaminute. . .are you actually trying to equate “elbow” and “vagina”? My mistake. You’re not shortsighted at all, just willfully ignorant. > [@](#): > > I know these girls agreed not to say it. . . Yet you believe that they are being mistreated when they get called out for saying it. > [@](#): > > . . .but the school was retarded for making such a demand in the first place. No, you ignorant piece of shit. My _daughter_ is retarded. The actions of the school administrators were foolish. Ignorance has been joined by rank stupidity, I see. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/63 "2007-03-07T03:57:31Z")
[QUOTE=seenidog] If you cannot figure out that explaining an elbow or a navel is somewhat easier than explaininng a vagina, I hold very little hope for this conversation. [/QUOTE] Elbow: 1 a: the joint of the human arm b: a corresponding joint in the anterior limb of a lower vertebrate. Navel: 1 : a depression in the middle of the abdomen that marks the point of former attachment of the umbilical cord or yolk stalk. Vagina: 1 : a canal in a female mammal that leads from the uterus to the external orifice of the genital canal So say Messrs. Merriam and Webster. I’m not seeing a monumental difference. Three anatomical terms; they all appear in pretty much every biology textbook, don’t they? Unless you can provide an explanation for how they’re so very different, you don’t have much ground to stand on. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/64 "2007-03-07T04:01:09Z")
[QUOTE=Caridwen] Have you ever seen the Vagina Monologues? It’s not really a performance with dancing vagina’s that’s acted out or anything. It’s a series of, well monologues based on interviews with real women. [/quote] Yes, I have seen it. And what’s more, I thought it was good. I fail to see where you would think that I imagine dancing pudenda. Maybe it was that line about rails, drinks and then a late night cruise. If so, I assure you, I was joking. > [@](#): > > How can you not use the word, or what word would you use? Why let them do it in the first place? Honestly, I don’t think you can avoid using “vagina” when doing a reading from “The Vagina Monologues”. As to why these girls were allowed to do it in the first place: Damned if I know. One thing I can guaran-goddamned-tee you, though, is that they’ll not be performing the show anytime soon. Hell, their fall play next year will probably be something as old and dessicated as “The Bat”. **That** ’s the travesty in this situation. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/65 "2007-03-07T04:05:22Z")
[QUOTE=seenidog] If you cannot figure out that explaining an elbow or a navel is somewhat easier than explaininng a vagina, I hold very little hope for this conversation. [/QUOTE] Really? “That’s your belly button. When you were growing inside Mommy before you were born, that’s where you got your food…and now it marks the spot where Mama blows belly bubbles! [ppppppbbbbtttttthhhhh]” “Elbow, elbow, where’s Caileigh’s elbow? There it is! Look at it bend!” “Yep, that’s your vagina! Where’s your belly? Good! Where are your knees?” [While changing a boy’s diaper while babysitting] “That’s Brian’s penis. He has a penis because he’s a boy. You and I have vaginas, because we’re girls! Does Daddy have a penis? Yep, because he’s a boy. Here, put this diaper in the garbage for Mama.” It’s really not that hard. ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/66 "2007-03-07T04:18:22Z")
[QUOTE=GLWasteful] Waitaminute. . .are you actually trying to equate “elbow” and “vagina”? My mistake. You’re not shortsighted at all, just willfully ignorant. [/QUOTE] Wha…what?? You think there’s something inherently dirty or inadvisable about using a correct anatomical term for a body part? There are of course numerous euphemisms for vagina - pussy, cunt, twat, slit, coo-coo, yoni, cunny… as there are for penis. But I would think the euphemisms far more offensive than the actual NAME of the body part, no? (From now on, I am referring to my elbow as my “arm-bendy” so I don’t offend anyone by using the correct anatomical terminology.) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/67 "2007-03-07T04:38:46Z")
[QUOTE=GLWasteful] Agreed, wholeheartedly. Just as your own daughter, mine learned proper terminology at an early age. I don’t think that the _term_ is offensive at all, What _is_ offensive is that someone would agree to act in a given way, then act in precisely the opposite way and think that they were being shat upon when they got called on it. [/quote] I doubt they think they really got shit on. It seems to me like they expected to get suspended. It was an act of civil disobedience where they expected consequences. I also don’t think there’s any particularly offensive about welshing on their agreement since the request was unreasonable in the first place. > [@](#): > > No, it’s not. And no, they’re not. A principal has to juggle a crapload of interests. A lot of them are absolute bullshit, but they still need to be juggled. To dismiss the principal’s concerns is to be shortsighted and willfully ignorant. I can’t defend a principal caving into concerns that morons will be offended by something, and it’s not exactly like he avoided controversy anyway. > [@](#): > > Waitaminute. . .are you actually trying to equate “elbow” and “vagina”? My mistake. You’re not shortsighted at all, just willfully ignorant. Ignorant of what? > [@](#): > > Yet you believe that they are being mistreated when they get called out for saying it. I never said they were mistreated by being suspended. I think they were (mildly) mistreated by being asked to agree to something stupid, but I’m not outraged by the suspension. > [@](#): > > No, you ignorant piece of shit. My _daughter_ is retarded. The actions of the school administrators were foolish. Ignorance has been joined by rank stupidity, I see. Sorry for any offense with the word “retarded.” I work in the DD field. I’m not insensitive to people with mental disabilities. It was a bad choice of words on my part. My apologies. I’ll call the school “chickenshit and thoughtless” instead. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/68 "2007-03-07T04:45:39Z")
[QUOTE=GLWasteful] Well, since they weren’t _performing_ the show, then odds are there were precious few indications that the show was being, y’know, performed. As to reading it as written: sounds wonderful, provided they didn’t agree upfront that they would not. If the oh so onerous strictures get youir bloomers in a twist, raise hell right fucking then. If reading the selections as written is so important, then don’t agree to do it in another fashion. Frightfully simple, really. [/quote] FYI, the play is literally just a series of spoken word monologues. It’s usually performed by two people sitting at at table reading from the script. There’s nothing else to it. There’s no plot or characters or anything. It’s like an episode of Def poetry Jam about vaginas. ETA that I missed where you had said that you’ve seen it. If you’ve seen it then why would you think that there’s a distinction between reading lines from the play and performing the play? Reading the lines IS how it’s performed. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/69 "2007-03-07T04:55:06Z")
[QUOTE=guizot] I wonder what they did to the football coach who quoted Shakespeare. [/QUOTE] Her C’s, her U’s and her T’s: why that? ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/70 "2007-03-07T05:43:05Z")
This brings back memories of when we read Huckleberry Finn in 9th grade English. The teacher was white, all the students were white, it was a masterpiece of American literature, and our textbooks where uncensored. She made us refer to him as “N-word Jim” :rolleyes: . Even the other teachers thought that was stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/71 "2007-03-07T05:53:53Z")
[QUOTE=alphaboi867] This brings back memories of when we read Huckleberry Finn in 9th grade English. The teacher was white, all the students were white, it was a masterpiece of American literature, and our textbooks where uncensored. She made us refer to him as “N-word Jim” :rolleyes: . Even the other teachers thought that was stupid. [/QUOTE] I’ll do you one better; we were required to read _The Grapes of Wrath_ in tenth grade…but the last page was covered by a sticker. As if there was anything seriously salacious about a starving man drinking from the breast of a woman who’d just delivered a stillborn baby. :rolleyes: Stranger ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/72 "2007-03-07T06:27:26Z")
[QUOTE=WhyNot] “That’s Brian’s penis. He has a penis because he’s a boy. You and I have vaginas, because we’re girls! Does Daddy have a penis? Yep, because he’s a boy. Here, put this diaper in the garbage for Mama.” [/QUOTE] Or, you could handle it like this family: > [@](#): > > A mother, father and young son are visiting the circus. The elephants walk out into the circus ring and the little boy says to his mother, “What’s that?” > “That’s the elephant’s tail,” she replies. > > “No, under the tail,” says the youngster. > > The mother is clearly embarrassed and says, “Oh, nothing.” > > The boy turns to his father and repeats the same question. His father looks and says, “That’s the elephant’s penis, son.” > > “So, why did mum say it was nothing?” asks the boy. > > The father draws himself up to his full height and says, “Son, I’ve spoiled that woman.” I, too, don’t understand what is so horrible about correct anatomical terms. What is the shock that humans can reproduce and have organs devoted to this purpose? Where is the wrong? [QUOTE=seenidog] It is in the unexpected context that it becomes problematic. [/quote] Again, this is only an issue if this is a BAD word. Is it? > [@](#): > > We have been known to watch stuff that would be entirely inappropriate for the young one, But most definately NOT while she (the young one) is a part of the audience. For that reason we usually watch presscreened videos with the the little one here. Our Choice. And out of curiousity, what is the appropirate age for children to know that there are sex organs, and to know the correct term for them? Or, are you like my mother who can live her whole adult live without uttering that word in mixed company? ---
**Author:** ![aclubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@aclubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aclubs)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/73 "2007-03-07T07:16:39Z")
If I might wade ever so gently into this conversation… > [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > And out of curiousity, what is the appropirate age for children to know that there are sex organs, and to know the correct term for them? I suppose it varies from parent to parent. Different parents will teach their children different things at different times, based on the child’s age, maturity, gender (perhaps), and on the parents’ values, taboos, and intelligence (and maturity as well.) Which is exactly the point. Parents and others who care for children should be the ones making the decisions as to when is the best time to introduce sensitive topics to their kids. And yes, “vagina” is most assuredly in a different category than “elbow.” Yeah, they’re both clinical. But I think we can all agree that only the most willfully ignorant person would believe that contemporary American society treats elbows and vaginas the same. (For example. it’s illegal in most places to appear in public with bare genitalia, whereas going out in public without an armband is perfectly fine.) Without determining if it’s right or wrong, it’s the way things are right now. The principal is operating not in an ideal world where parents are enlightened and children are aware of the full extent of human anatomy, but in the real world, where it’s perfectly expected that a great many parents don’t want their kids to be exposed to such things. I personally believe that high school students are generally mature enough to hear the word “vagina” and not freak out. But then again, I’m not a parent yet, and I don’t know how I would react. One thing I’m absolutely sure of is that I want my children to be introduced to sex on my terms, not on the terms of their classmates. Idealistic, perhaps. But still my belief, and most assuredly my prerogative. Also, these folks broke their word. Yeah, they might have broken their word in the pursuit of changing unfair societal views on vaginas and women in general, which is admirable. I just wish they didn’t have to be dishonest in the pursuit of those goals and undermine the parental prerogative. That’s bad news no matter how you slice it. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/74 "2007-03-07T07:32:48Z")
[QUOTE=aclubs] … And yes, “vagina” is most assuredly in a different category than “elbow.” Yeah, they’re both clinical. But I think we can all agree that only the most willfully ignorant person would believe that contemporary American society treats elbows and vaginas the same. (For example. it’s illegal in most places to appear in public with bare genitalia, whereas going out in public without an armband is perfectly fine.) Without determining if it’s right or wrong, it’s the way things are right now. … [/QUOTE] Ahh, strange world you live in if you think exposing your vagina is the same thing as saying vagina! CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![aclubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@aclubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aclubs)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/75 "2007-03-07T07:41:14Z")
Didn’t say that. I only say that society treats vaginas and elbows differently, even if simply spoken. I think in the context of this incident, the facts speak for themselves in this matter. ---
**Author:** ![Seven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Seven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seven)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/76 "2007-03-07T07:43:58Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] The pussification of America is just so damn frustrating! [/QUOTE] What are you talking about? The USA was founded by puritans and remains in their control. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/77 "2007-03-07T10:03:35Z")
[QUOTE=NinjaChick] Elbow: 1 a: the joint of the human arm b: a corresponding joint in the anterior limb of a lower vertebrate. Navel: 1 : a depression in the middle of the abdomen that marks the point of former attachment of the umbilical cord or yolk stalk. Vagina: 1 : a canal in a female mammal that leads from the uterus to the external orifice of the genital canal So say Messrs. Merriam and Webster. I’m not seeing a monumental difference. Three anatomical terms; they all appear in pretty much every biology textbook, don’t they? Unless you can provide an explanation for how they’re so very different, you don’t have much ground to stand on. [/QUOTE] Okay. Would you object to linking to a picture of your elbow? Would you object to linking to a picture of your navel? Would you object to linking to a picture of your vagina? Enquiring minds just want to know. > [@GLWasteful](#): > > They cut off his testicle **s, natch**. Hee hee… you said “snatch”… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/78 "2007-03-07T11:59:01Z")
[QUOTE=seenidog] If you cannot figure out that explaining an elbow or a navel is somewhat easier than explaininng a vagina, I hold very little hope for this conversation. [/quote] What would that explanation entail? “Mom…what’s a bagina?” “It’s the part of a mommy’s body where babies are born from.” Seriously…is this so freekin’ hard? > [@](#): > > My point is that the ladies involved decieved the principle, and through him the excpetations of the attendees, and it was wrong. If they had fought the terms of the contract, or better yet pushed for a better venue, I would be arguing on thier side. The expectation of the audience, when finding out that excerpts from the \*Vagina Monologues \* was being read, would be to hear the word “vagina.” Unless they’re complete idiots. Do we really think the school told the audience ahead of time that the word was being deleted? "Folks, rather than saying the word “vagina”, we’re going to substitute it with “cooter” or “snatch” or “hoo-hoo” or “cunt.” Um…yeah. The principal got punk’d because his/her desire to “shield” the audience was stupid and after some thought, the kids decided to take a stand. Good for them! ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/79 "2007-03-07T12:04:27Z")
[QUOTE=GLWasteful] Yeah, sensibilities. And no, I’m not kidding you. Frankly, I wouldn’t care if my daughter heard someone else using proper terminology for vagina, penis, chlamydia or any number of other things. But I’m kinda funny inasmuch as I recognize that not everyone is as hip and groovy as I am, and wouldn’t try to piss off a group of parents as well as administrators by openly lying that I would do something in a given way, then do it opposite during performance. [/quote] What would the “proper” word be that would even come close to expressing the intent of the piece? Using anatomically correct terminology is not considered “hip” or “groovy” (well…maybe groovy, in the case of a cooter) in any circles. The hip folks are the ones that come up with clever slang. It’s always been this way. > [@](#): > > Christ in a truck! I’m terribly unaccustomed to being the voice of responsibility. I gotta do a few rails of heroin, knock back a coupla cocktails, then drive somewhere just to shake this feeling off. It’s irresponsible to tell kids to advertise that they’re performing a reading and then _expect_ them to _change the artist’s words_. Most likely without the artist’s permission. ---
**Author:** ![Garfield226](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Garfield226](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garfield226)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/80 "2007-03-07T12:27:29Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] It’s irresponsible to tell kids to advertise that they’re performing a reading and then _expect_ them to _change the artist’s words_. Most likely without the artist’s permission. [/QUOTE] It seems you’ve reversed the order of events in your statement. You see, the girls were first told to change the artists words, and upon their agreement, they were allowed to advertise that they were performing a reading. Had there been no agreement, there would have been no advertisement. Who’s irresponsible? The girls, for lying about what they were going to perform. > [@Kalhoun](#): > > The principal got punk’d because his/her desire to “shield” the audience was stupid and after some thought, the kids decided to take a stand. Good for them! The principal didn’t get “punk’d” (if there’s one term we can all agree upon to be banned, can this please be it?), he was lied to and took appropriate action to punish the liars. I didn’t see Ashton Kutcher supergluing his desk drawers shut or anything – he did his job, part of which includes punishing those who don’t abide by the rules he and the school board set. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864.md?page=5)