# Say vagina, get suspended **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 6, 2007, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864 "2007-03-06T22:10:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/101 "2007-03-07T16:50:46Z")
I hope that when the girls come back to school from their suspension, the first word out of their mouths on school ground is “vagina.” OMG IT IS SUCH A DIRTY WORD! Seriously, I’d heard worse after five minutes on the bus my first day of high school. Are they going to start suspending students who cuss every other word? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/102 "2007-03-07T16:52:52Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] The hell it’s a non-sexual context. Are you seriously asserting there’s no subtext there in proclaiming a short skirt as your vagina’s flag of freedom - and there’s no more impact intended there than in proclaiming a short-sleeved shirt as your elbow’s flag of freedom? (It’s hard here not to say something about the citizen’s right to bare arms.) [/QUOTE] It was in a feminist context, which I don’t think is the same thing as a sexual context. If the line had been, “It feels so good when my boyfriend uses an 18” double headed jelly blue dildo on my vagina", THAT would have been a sexual context. I think the short sleeve analogy would be perfect in, say, Saudi Arabia or Hasidic Skokie, IL, where elbows are similarly hidden from view for cultural reasons. I never personally made the point that a vagina is sociologically the same as an elbow, nor do I believe they are - I just said that you can teach kids the names of both body parts with equal ease. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/103 "2007-03-07T16:55:58Z")
[QUOTE=ArizonaTeach] But the title of this thread is “Say vagina, get suspended,” **WhyNot**. So yes, it seems some people do believe the thrust of this argument is that the girls are being punished soley for uttering that word. So our school is doing \*Grease \* for the musical this year. Does anyone really expect the line “She’s a real pussy wagon” to be in the play? [/quote] I don’t know too many schools who would use derrogatory slang in a play, but “vagina” is not derrogatory; it’s a clinical term for a woman’s reproductive organ. Nothing naughty about it. If someone in the audience has a Hoo Hah Hangup, that doesn’t mean the rest of us have to put our fingers in our ears and say “la-la-la I can’t hear you!” > [@](#): > > Plays and readings get cut and altered ALL THE TIME in schools. All. The. Time. Where is this idea that they have to read it exactly as written coming from? I used to coach the speech team, and the kids had to do selected readings inside ten minutes, so poems were cut, words were changed, sentences were truncated. Hell, there were judges at our speech tournaments who would automatically drop the kid a couple rankings if they swore. Right or wrong, they were the judges, and you had to play to the audience. I can understand shortening it (i.e., reading an excerpt) but there was nothing about this reading that was improper by any thinking adult’s standards. The alternative words are the ones that are slang and offensive; not the word chosen by the artist. They need to save their editorial efforts for something that actually makes sense. > [@](#): > > This is absolutely not a free speech issue. If the kids had gotten on stage and said curse words for five minutes, ending with “First amendment, mother fuckers!” would it be defended here? Seriously? I don’t recall anyone arguing that it _was_ a free speech issue. > [@](#): > > The girls wanted to do a reading at an open mic night, if I’m understanding it right…not the whole play, which is an issue that seems to be being ignored here. It’s been awhile since I’ve seen _The Vagina Monologues_, but are you seriously telling me that there’s not a five-six minute section that doesn’t use the word “vagina?” The girls could have chosen anything. The school, doing its due diligence, made sure everything in the performance would be up to the community’s standards (and I believe the principal knows more about the community’s standards than **The Straght Dope** ). The kids had an understanding that they would not say the word – which, again, is not at all an unusual request, and quite frankly, more common than not – but apparently not only had every intention of saying the word, they said it together (hey, that’s not an original script note, is it? You know, reading the monologue as a trio? Damn kids were already messing with the text!) to emphasize the point. The kids were in the wrong. I’m sure they could have. But the whole point of the Vagina Monologues is that it has to do with _vaginas_ and (in part) the bizarre attitudes our society has toward them. Choosing a passage that doesn’t contain the word defeats the purpose of choosing that piece for the reading at all! If they weren’t such clueless pussies at the administration level, they’d have gotten the concept at its most basic level and either allowed the word or disallowed a choice from that piece altogether. > [@](#): > > This is simply disobedience, not civil disobedience. Seeing as it is a feminist piece, and seeing as the administration is behaving much the same way the author claims society behaves toward vaginas, I’d say it was clearly civil disobedience. > [@](#): > > These kids were not striking a blow for free speech. It’s not like they all got together and said, “this inability to say forbidden words in a public, school setting is infringing on my right as a human being, just like not being able to curse in thread titles is a blow to humanity.” Kids (and teachers, for that matter) absolutely positively do not have the right to say anything and everything they want to in school, and I am willing to bet that many people who are defending the girls would not do so if they used other words that are deemed offensive by some and not by others, which is the case here. Civil disobedience isn’t only about freedom of speech. It is also about injustice and public perception. They _weren’t_ cursing and it _isn’t_ a forbidden word. It appears in books the kids are being taught out of. It is the correct term for female genitalia. It is the only socially acceptable word for it. > [@](#): > > This is coming from an AP English teacher who has had complaints over the past 13 years about teaching mythology (by fundamentalists), \*Huckleberry Finn \* (by a black family), \*Invisible Man \* (mother offended by the stripper in chapter 1), \*Romeo and Juliet \* (girl’s older sister had just committed suicide – why was I being so insensitive?) and a myriad of short stories and poems that offended a large Mormon community, so I’ve been hit from all sides. > > Anyway, this is only my second post ever, after a guest message two years ago, so be gentle. (Yes, I lurked for two years – and I know the whole Liberal/Libertarian story, incidentally!). I just felt the need to defend my profession in a matter that seems crystal clear to me, but apparently isn’t so from the outside. I think having to deal with disobedient kids all day long may have colored your perception of what simple disobedience and a meaningful protest of Administrative Stupidity are. The administration had it coming. They’re behaving like children themselves. A dose of reality is just what they needed. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/104 "2007-03-07T17:04:09Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] Don’t get shirty with me! :dubious: [/QUOTE] Whoa! You sound fitted tee be tied. ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/105 "2007-03-07T17:18:11Z")
If I’d had the opportunity to advise the girls, I’d have suggested they substitute the administrator’s name for every occurrence of “vagina”, and make sure the selections contained many instances of that word, and make sure that the author’s intended word was clear from the context. ---
**Author:** ![Solfy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Solfy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Solfy)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/106 "2007-03-07T17:18:37Z")
[QUOTE=GLWasteful] Damn, Sam. You have managed to completely miss the point that has been made by the administration, myself and other posters. Once more, since it seems to have eluded you: There’s nothing whatsoever wrong with the term “vagina”. What was wrong was agreeing, which these girls did, to do a reading and not use that particular term, then turn around and use it. [/QUOTE] But that’s where the problem started - someone prior to open mic night decided that there IS something wrong with the term “vagina.” Otherwise the girls wouldn’t have been asked not to say it in the first place. The reasoning given was to protect the delicate sensibilities of the audience. What I don’t understand is why the audience needs to be protected from such foul, filthy language. If you’ve decided that your toddler is not ready to learn anatomical terms for body parts, then they likely will have not heard the word before. My child probably has never heard the word antidisestablishmentarianism before. If we were to hear it in a public place, it would go in one ear and out the other. It’s not like the girls were dancing around the stage shouting “Hooray for vaginas!” over and over. Do parents also not take their impressionable delicate children out in public, where they might be exposed to unannounced swear words? While I don’t disagree with the fact that the girls broke the agreement and there should be consequences, I think the fact that we as a society are so uptight that the school has to go to lengths to protect their audience from such a “dirty” word is sad. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/107 "2007-03-07T17:21:32Z")
[QUOTE=GLWasteful] Yes, and I am fully aware of that. However, this whole brouhaha came about because of a flip comment about the school creating programs that say “XXX”. Since this was an all ages event (or so it seems from what’s been reported thus far), then there wouldn’t have _been_ a fucking program that prominently featured the name of the play. And I’ve seen damned few people commenting on the superintendent saying that the kids were welcome to perform the play as written. So long as they perform it for an audience that knows full well going in that they are going to see “The Vagina Monologues” and are able to determine if they are comfortable hearing the language contained therein when they decide whether or not to go. [/QUOTE] Why would you assume they’d list everything on the program except this one? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/108 "2007-03-07T17:27:53Z")
[pet peeve] Vagina is **not** synonymous with “female genitalia”. The vagina is _part_ of the genitalia, and is internal. [/pet peeve] If you mean “vulva”, say “vulva”. If you mean “genitalia”, say “genitalia”. I would have made them stay after class and complete a spelling list of the correct names of all the parts of the human reproductive system. Let’s see how smart they act after spelling “[corpus cavernosum clitoridis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_cavernosum_clitoridis)” a few hundred times. Kids today. I’m telling ya. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/109 "2007-03-07T17:28:20Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] I can understand shortening it (i.e., reading an excerpt) but there was nothing about this reading that was improper by any thinking adult’s standards. [/QUOTE] Ah, but we’re not necessarily talking about thinking adults. The issue may very well be the hellraising mom who might sue the school because her 10-year-old daughter was forced to hear a bad word and might need years and years of therapy to not become an axe-murdering prostitute. That’s the reality that principals must face every day. The girls weren’t forbidden from saying the word vagina. They were asked not to say it _in that particular venue_. They weren’t strking a blow for women’s rights. They were being petulant brats. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/110 "2007-03-07T17:35:06Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Why would you assume they’d list everything on the program except this one? [/QUOTE] Why would you assume it wasn’t listed as “A reading from the works of Eve Ensler”? Why would you assume there was a printed program at all, for that matter? I don’t know that there was one, and neither do you. Not enough info to go on. We also can’t assume that the letter board outside the school said “Tonight 8 PM A reading of the VAGINA Dialogues in which girls with VAGINAS talk all about their VAGINAS.” ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/111 "2007-03-07T17:36:11Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] [pet peeve] Vagina is **not** synonymous with “female genitalia”. The vagina is _part_ of the genitalia, and is internal. [/pet peeve] [/QUOTE] I share your anguish in a prescriptive sense. By descriptive linguistics and common usage, however, we both have to bow our heads and mourn the passing of a great word. “Vagina” is now synonymous with “vulva”, as well as being descriptive of the canal extending from the cervix to the exterior of the body. It’s the most widely used non-vulgar term for the vulva. Much like “stomach” means both the exterior abdominal region and the internal organ responsible for the second stage of digestion, in fact. When most people say they got kicked in the stomach, they mean the intestinal region. Getting kicked in your actual stomach would generally mean broken ribs. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/112 "2007-03-07T17:42:54Z")
As long as you live under my roof, you’ll live by my rules, young man! In **my** day, we didn’t have any of this namby-pamby Internet stuff! We had to go to National Geographic for **our** smut! And they were floppy native boobs! And we were _grateful_ for it! _grumble grumble…_ Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/113 "2007-03-07T17:44:04Z")
[QUOTE=tdn] Why would you assume it wasn’t listed as “A reading from the works of Eve Ensler”? Why would you assume there was a printed program at all, for that matter? I don’t know that there was one, and neither do you. Not enough info to go on. [/QUOTE] Actually, I’ll correct myself. Since the suprintendant said “As long as the intended audience knows what to expect, we don’t have a problem with it”, then I think it’s safe to assume that the audience was not, in fact, forwarned as to the content. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/114 "2007-03-07T18:00:27Z")
[QUOTE=GLWasteful] Damn, Sam. You have managed to completely miss the point that has been made by the administration, myself and other posters. Once more, since it seems to have eluded you: **There’s nothing whatsoever wrong with the term “vagina”.** What was wrong was agreeing, which these girls did, to do a reading and not use that particular term, then turn around and use it. [/quote] (Bolding mine) I’m not the one missing the point here. The students decided there’s nothing wrong with the word and decided to buck the establishment. They agreed to something and then changed their minds after the stupidity of the agreement sunk in. Too fuckin’ bad! If they were adults, they might have handled it differently, but they’re not. They were aware of the consequences and took it. > [@](#): > > Horseshit. If you’re this ignorant about how things happen all the fucking time in a performance setting, then maybe you should spend some time paying attention to the world around you. Horseshit back at ya. There was nothing obscene about the reading as written. There was no logical reason to edit it other than for length. The move was misguided and the kids pointed it out. With that kind of stupidity at the helm they had no choice but to circumvent the system. That’s how it’s done. > [@](#): > > These girls requested (I imagine) to perform a reading from “The Vagina Monologues” at an Open Mic Night at their school. The administration was stupid not to foresee something of this sort, and agreed if the girls would avoid using the word “vagina”. The girls agreed to this. They said that they would perform without using the word “vagina”. Damned if I know what they were supposed to say instead, and would like to know, but that doesn’t matter. What matters is that they said they would do the reading without using a term that the administration felt would be poorly received by the audience. They then used the word that they had been instructed not to use, and were suspended. I personally think that suspension was a little harsh, but I don’t know the community as well as those who live there. It appears that you have some deep insight that has thus far eluded me. Might I inquire where I could get some? It doesn’t matter what the “community” thinks. The community, with regard to this incident, is misguided and needed an eye-opener. The fact that those in authority can’t see that doesn’t make it any less apparent. > [@](#): > > Again, this has nothing to do with the word “vagina” being uttered on a school stage by school actors. The fucking superintendent said that they were welcome to perform the show. This is an instance of three girls barefacedly lying to the principal, then being punished for doing so. As someone already pointed out, if they had used the sort of language that I use daily and wrapped it up by saying, “First Amendment, Motherfuckers!” Then this conversation wouldn’t be taking place. That’s right. A term that is generally understood to be obscene would have gotten a completely different reaction. But that’s not what happened. They did nothing obscene. They stood up to a stupid authoritarian move the best way their teen-aged brains could think of and they made their point and took their lumps. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/115 "2007-03-07T18:07:14Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] It doesn’t matter what the “community” thinks. [/QUOTE] Are you saying that a public school principal should not be concerned with the possible reaction of the community? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/116 "2007-03-07T18:09:55Z")
Vaginas, scrotums\*, what is the world coming to? \*if you think this is a brouhaha, Google scrotum and Newbery Award Winner (forgot the name of the book). In it, the author describes an accident that occurs to a dog–he is bitten in the scrotum by a rattlesnake. This author is now accused of moral turpitude and defiling our Young… :rolleyes: I hope the girls take their suspension with pride. I do feel sorry for the principal–he (she?) has to face any number of completely unreasonable parents every day. I do wonder if a reading contained the word penis, if all this nonsense would have ensued, though. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/117 "2007-03-07T18:10:51Z")
[QUOTE=tdn] Are you saying that a public school principal should not be concerned with the possible reaction of the community? [/QUOTE] Not with regard to this particular word. He caved to their (perceived) collective stupidity. He ought to give the community a little more credit and he should quit being such a vagina. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/118 "2007-03-07T18:11:38Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] It doesn’t matter what the “community” thinks. The community, with regard to this incident, is misguided and needed an eye-opener. The fact that those in authority can’t see that doesn’t make it any less apparent. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure you realize how much you sound like a right-wing nutjob. They say pretty much the same thing about the standards they want to impose on others. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/119 "2007-03-07T18:21:40Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] I’m not sure you realize how much you sound like a right-wing nutjob. They say pretty much the same thing about the standards they want to impose on others. [/QUOTE] And the school (we really don’t know what the audience thought about it, do we?) was trying to impose their standards on the girls. This was one wimpy principal’s “don’t rock the boat” decision that was based on antiquated ideas that have no place in today’s world. ---
**Author:** ![GLWasteful](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f05b48/32.png) [@GLWasteful](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GLWasteful)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2007, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864/120 "2007-03-07T18:22:16Z")
[QUOTE=Solfy] But that’s where the problem started - someone prior to open mic night decided that there IS something wrong with the term “vagina.” Otherwise the girls wouldn’t have been asked not to say it in the first place. The reasoning given was to protect the delicate sensibilities of the audience. [/quote] That’s absolutely true. And it’s truly unfortunate that society has deemed “vagina” to be a word that shan’t be spoken around children. And the principal was taking the community and the audience into account when the girls were asked (told? dunno) not to use the term “vagina”. Damned shame and all like that, but (and I see this has once again been missed, I’ll get to it more later): the girls involved specifically stated (I imagine), “We swan, Mr Principal, sir, that we won’t use the word “vagina” during our reading.” Then they turned around and used the word “vagina”. > [@](#): > > While I don’t disagree with the fact that the girls broke the agreement and there should be consequences, I think the fact that we as a society are so uptight that the school has to go to lengths to protect their audience from such a “dirty” word is sad. Sounds like we’re on the same page. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/say-vagina-get-suspended/394864.md?page=7)