Well said. “Don’t knuckle under to the prinicipal with no balls, man up and knuckle under to me.”
What is it with you and machismo? Are you one of those obnoxious women that picks a fight with a linebacker and then orders your boyfriend to “be a man and defend my honor, you pussy”? If that’s what honestly gets you off, then maybe you can cut the principal some slack, as he took control of the situation. I’m betting that if he failed to follow through with the punishment he promised, you’d be all over him for that.
<slight hijack> Malacandra, thanks for the info re carols. I’ve never seen either of those verses. I think they are more common in UK than here. I love the In the Bleak MidWinter, but am really only familiar with the tune.
And now I have genius/penuis andgenii with penii running through my head…It sounds quite Gilbertian!
<end slight hijack>
There’s a big difference between going and seeing TVM and going and seeing a programme of bits and pieces that happens to include a piece by “author” that does not include the word “vagina”, which was what was meant to happen. No doubt you’re happy wandering down to your local mall and discussing vaginas with anyone who wanders within earshot, but not everyone’s as enlightened as you.
Maybe I misunderstood this:
No, it’s about abiding by the terms of an agreement you have entered into of your own free will.
Too right. I’d’ve said something about abiding by terms and something about stupid adolescent attention-getting behaviour.
What they believed in was doing what they wanted to regardless of whether they’d been given the floor only on the agreement that they would act as they had agreed to act.
Yup, they tested the boundary, they found that it was enforced after all. I’ve no idea why you think this was a point well made.
Well, for them it would be “Don’t act like an overprivileged twat next time”. And for the principal it would be “Don’t allow immature adolescents to perform readings from controversial works on the assumption that obscene words will be voluntarily filtered out, no matter how carefully it has been explained that this is a condition of the performance”. I’d guess this little gem has actually set back the chances of TVM being performed at that school in the near future.
<continues>Holzt, or Darke? The second’s a lovely arrangement.</continues>
Ha! Your story reminds me of something that happened to my sister back in her high school English class. A substitute teacher notorious for being stupid (bless her heart) was presiding that day and the class was a bit rambunctious with sidebar conversations and minor horseplay. Over the general noise in the room, the teacher overheard my sister saying something random and unimportant to someone else. She was so offended by my sister’s language that she pulled her out of the room and yelled at her frantically, as if she’d just shouted out a bunch of profane obscenities.
Wanna know the word that got the substitute teacher all up in a tizzy?
“Boycott.”
The teacher thought “boycott” was a bad word.
Bless her heart.
I’m having trouble believing you really don’t understand this. Maybe because it’s coming from people you’re arguing with. May I try, since we’re on the same “side”?
“Open Mic Night” was designed to be an all ages event. An opportunity for little borthers and sisters to come see their big siblings doing short scenes, reading poetry, and having a good time. Perhaps (speculation) it was part of a fundraiser for the English Department. Perhaps (speculation) it was part of a “get to know the school” even designed to attract new families to enroll their kids there. Whatever the reason, it was decided, ahead of time, that it should be G-rated. Disneyfied, if you will.
The superintendent has said that, with prior permission (and one assumes a sponsor, director, and a budget to pay royalties, at the very least), a full production of The Vagina Monologues would have been approved. This would not, understandably, have been advertised as a G-rated event. They could have put some warning blurbs on the posters letting parents know that it’s a R-rated show (or at least PG-13). (And I don’t claim that rating for it because of the language, but because I’ve seen the show and it would be both disturbing and boring for little kids due to the content (stories of rape, abuse and female genital mutilation) and the presentation (three or more women sitting on stools holding scripts for two hours.) They could have verbally warned parents who showed up with kids at the door that this was not going to go well for them.
So these aren’t, in fact, contradictory statements. Disallowing the word vagina on a family friendly night still seems ludicrous to me, and I’m glad the girls fought for what they believe in*, but it’s not antithetical to allowing a full production of the show. To say, “but they could have put warnings on the flyers for Open Mic night” misses the point that they didn’t want “controversial” material IN their Open Mic night.
One other point: the poem they chose for Open Mic night does, in fact, work without the word vagina. No replacement word is needed. So now that we’ve seen the poem, we can all of us stop this (funny) bit about whether the principal would have preferred “fish taco” or “poon tang” instead.
*whatever that is - I don’t care why kids learn to buck authority, I’m just glad they do. I hate rap music, but I like to see kids fighting for their right to listen to the crap at lunchtime when rock is allowed and rap banned.
Funny, the last time I was involved in a Gilbert and Sullivan production, our chief rival for ad space, rehearsal rooms, and actresses was some play where womenfolk talked about their hoochies.
I am reminded of a teacher I had in 11th grade, Mrs. Weatherall. Most of the kids thought she was a total bitch. I rather liked her. One of my favorite teachers. Far from being a bitch, I thought she was pretty cool. One of the sections in her English class was poetry. groan One particular project was to pick a song from our favorite band and analyse the lyrics. I instead chose several songs from several albums, the subject of my project being recurring themes in the lyrics of Pink Floyd. A few of the songs I picked were peppered with shits and fucks. Instead of censoring these words (which she had every right to do), Mrs. Weatherall typed them up and handed them out to the class.
Of course, she wouldn’t have tolerated me giving my presentation by calling my fellow students a bunch of fucking shits.
Generally good points all around, WhyNot. Great post.
Thank you! It took me a bit a research to find that, and I thought at least one person would acknowledge that I posted it. Kalhoun, in particular, seems to have completely ignored it. Can’t be bothered with facts, and all that.
Actually, after reading that, it’s probably better that they kept “vagina” in, because their other option was to emphasize the first syllable in the next word, which would have opened a totally different can of worms…!
Yeah, that thought occurred to me too. My cunt.
Tree 'tis of thee.
For those of you suggesting that the public could have been warned of the objectionable content of this particular Open Mic Night in advance either in the program or on fliers, how do you propose the school should have gone about that?
“Warning: This Open Mic Night contains adult material. Parental discretion is advised.”
No, that wouldn’t raise any red flags.
How about a note in the program:
“The following play contains the word ‘vgn*’ Parents are encouraged to cover young children’s ears during this performance.”
Or an advance warning could be sent home as a note to the parents:
“Friends and family planning on attending Open Mic Night are advised that one performance may contain a single word that is a reference to a female reproductive structure. All persons who may be offended by such a word are encouraged to stay home.”
What’s so offensive about that? Lots of people live in Wst Vgn. Oh noes! next they might say Clfrn!
If it were to be done (and it wouldn’t because this wasn’t intended to have “mature” content), I think your first option is closest:
I might amend it a bit to avoid drawing attention to the specific selection. Maybe something like:
Parents should be aware that some of the performances at Thursday’s Open Mic night may not be suitable for very young viewers. Please consider the show to have a “PG” rating, and plan your evening accordingly.
For the actual show of The Vagina Monologues, I’d be a bit more explicit:
The Vagina Monologues is a challenging work we’re proud to present. Theater patrons should be aware that it contains language and themes not suitable for young children or the easily offended, including personal stories of rape and oppression, as well as positive sexuality.
Or simply:
Due to content, no one under the age of 14 will be admitted.
Yeah, it was. I overlooked it previously. Thanks for the heads up. I also kinda liked this part:
Stands in pretty stark opposition to your ignorant bleatings about them, “. . .behaving like a bunch of snickering 10 year old boys,” being, “wimpy,” or, “Mr. Uptight Principal with No Balls.” Sounds like he was being a high school principal who was acting. . .well, like a high school principal. Now, maybe you went to a school where the students determined what was and wasn’t appropriate, but the rest of us are safely ensconced here in reality where the authority figures get to make decisions as to what is and isn’t acceptable. Personally, I think that “vagina” is an acceptable term, but understand that not everyone might feel the same way and would ask students to act accordingly during an Open Mic Night. In your tightly proscribed world, though, you are welcome to allow the students to do whatever in hell they want.
Jesus shat. . .I’m still trying to convince myself that you’re not stupid enough to totally misread what I’ve written, then you go and splatter such as the above. Tsk I say. . .tsk.
It’s called reality.
See, again, I simply don’t recall advocating this. Tell me, what color is the sky where you are?
Clearly, we’ve not met.
But too many, you among them, are living with your heads up your asses.
What in hell are you on about here? You claimed that the Superintendent said that they could perform the play only if the word “vagina” was removed. The superintendent, of course, did no such thing. Quite to the contrary, he said that they could have performed the play. As it was written. By Eve Ensler. With the word “vagina” included. So long as and please take not of this part, since it seems to have escaped you any number of times thus far the audience knew going in what to expect.
Once again. . .sigh:
The fucking superintendent said that they were welcome to perform the show.
I’ve actually been to an Open Mic Night as recently as two weeks ago. I knew that any number of parents would be there, siblings of students, teachers, administrators and other school board members as well as my daughter. The students, as I’ve seen them do at previous Open Mic Nights, played to their audience. In other words, they acted as mature young adults who observed a situation and acted accordingly.
Um, no it wouldn’t. The people in charge decided that the word was charged enough that it might offend some in attendance. Personally, I don’t think it should, but understand the reticence, what with dealing with pissy, assholic parents fairly regularly. Whether you like it or not, and judging by your responses to date I’m guessing you don’t, a public high school is run according to the procedures laid out by the board. (and if the board is going to get so involved in the minutiae of what might happen that they took this into consideration, then that board is totally fucked up) Which leaves the superintendent and individual principals leeway to make executive decisions as situations arise. Which is what happened, apparently.
Once again, I’m gonna hafta ask you to point out where I did any such thing. Of course, judging by the fact that you’re currently 0 for 2, I’m not going to hold my breath this time. I still have a nasty bump where I fell the first time.
It says, “parents”. Not “many parents” or “entire community” or “partial community” or even “community”. Once again, reading comprehension is a wondrous thing. Give it a shot.
And in reading the article (all thanks, by the by) I notice that the school has kept a book that has been complained about by parents. Sounds to me like the principal not only has a set, but knows when and where to deploy them. Frankly, this sucks. I think that the school was in the wrong to allow it in the first place. But if, as the article states, they could have performed the entire play, then they should have done so. This entire thing is a tempest in a teapot.
Or, more accurately, it sounds like you are incapable of reading a news article (not all that surprising, since you’ve had an absolute devil of a time in this thread) and knee-jerkingly thinking “parents” automatically translates into “groundswell of support”. Who knows, maybe you’re right and the principal is treating the community as if they were a bunch of drooling idiots. If so, I can assure you, the principal will be replaced. Or, as others have said, this was simply a group of high school girls disobeying a request (order? again, dunno) not to say “vagina”, then doing so. The administration then stepped in and did what they are supposed to do, and everyone feels vindicated.
Two things: it wasn’t a misquote. It would behoove you to learn what certain terms mean before you try to use them. And my sarcasmometer is in fine working order. Maybe we’re using different operating systems?
Already spoken to above, but ultimately it doesn’t matter if the audience contained people who were positively slathering at the opportunity to hear “vagina” uttered on their high school stage. The girls agreed going in that they would not use the word, then during performance they did so. That is the issue at hand. Your attempts to equate their use of the word “vagina” to the civil rights struggle notwithstanding.
And d’you suppose that has something to do with the audience?
As you have demonstrated, you have a hard time seeing ever so much. Such as quotes that appear in a news article. Not to worry, though, I feel certain that someday you’ll be able to read an article and absorb the entire thing. And I’m pulling for ya, li’l shooter.
You can say any number of things about me, and if I think that you’ve missed something, I will cheerfully point it out to you. But claiming that I’ve psychologically damaged my child is beyond the pale.
20 minutes? I bow at your feet, sir. You, as the kids say, Rawk!
I dunno. Let’s gender-switch it & see what happens. “My tight jeans are a liberation flag in the goom’s army. I declare these streets, any streets, my penis’s country.”
Of course, the fact that we even use “vagina” instead of, I dunno, “queint” or “cooch” or “cunny” or whatever non-clinical word would have become dominant in a different history is due to people treating it differently. I mean, we don’t call the neck the “cervix” or prefer “digit” to “toe” do we?
:eek: Most students have had a health class explain much more than what a vulva is by 8th grade. Anyone who thinks it’s remotely OK for a high school student not to be aware of vaginas is asking for Trouble. As for “freaking out,” who would freak out? Any teen that freaks out is going to be dismissed with pity & rolled eyes. Now, younger children, they might not understand the sexual politics of it; but, it occurs to me that in this or any country, you’re never too young to learn, in the most general sense, what rape means, & that it’s a bad thing.
Clearly, your debating style was learned from the serpent in the Garden of Eden. Hush.
What? No! In the pro-vagina context of TVM, that would be flattering him.
But performance is not the same as unsolicited conversation, whatever the content. If I were to walk up to you at work & start reciting a scene from Agnes of God, or the lyrics of “Supper’s Ready”, as if I were trying to carry on a serious real-life conversation, I would still be behaving aberrantly. Things that make no sense as random conversation are permitted in a performance context because it is a performance. But you’re right in general.
Maybe it comes from being raised by a devoutly Xtian single mother, but I am always struck when women claim that men in this country are taught to be explicitly proud of their cocks. I guess it’s a matter of context. In my experience, it seems that men will brag about their cocks in certain contexts, but in polite company, we’re expected to ignore their existence.
That said, there’s a big difference between saying “dick” (which is a euphemism; it’s rhyming slang, or it refers indirectly to Dick Nixon–or can be construed as such) & saying “cock” or “prick” or “penis” itself.
This is a non sequitur the size of Vermont. If they’re really cool with it, the district may well plan to hold TVM, in full glory, next year; or at least grow a little more liberal after the snit these suspension raised. OTOH, the superintendent can say whatever lie he wants after the fact; if they’re really the type to freak out & say, “no, no, never again,” school-sponsored TVM probably wasn’t a great possibility before this.
“In-school suspension”
What would happen if they didn’t show up for an in-school suspension? Would they get an outside-the-school suspension?
Tell ya what…there is about [sub]this[/sub] much chance that I would’ve ever served an in-school suspension. If I ain’t gettin’ credit for it, I ain’t there.
Huh? I think you misinterpreted me. Read what I wrote.
