# SC mass shooting (etc) informed by gun culture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2015, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416 "2015-06-25T01:58:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/61 "2015-06-28T12:54:21Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Doesn’t have to be all. First world countries with roughly a third the US gun ownership rate, like Canada and Germany, are much safer. Oh, okay. We only need convince gun owners to get rid of a couple hundred million guns, then. Piece of cake. Shouldn’t take long at all. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > \*\*One does aways with drugs \*\*and its concomitant criminality. What? You mean they’re bad? Christ, we should put laws into place saying they’re illegal, and arrest people who make/distribute/use them! Why don’t we do that??? > [@RagingxMarmoset](#): > > I can’t even tell if this is a coherent post. I get so pissed off with gun owners that I can’t see straight. Perfectly coherent and reasonably stated. All of my gun-owning friends would agree with you 100%. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > I’m curious as to why you aren’t pissed off at the drug dealers, petty criminals, thug-life assholes and hot-headed low-lifes who are the ones who are actually committing most of the country’s gun murders instead In the majority of handgun deaths, the victim is the guy with his finger on the trigger: suicide. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/62 "2015-06-28T13:06:17Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Oh, okay. We only need convince gun owners to get rid of a couple hundred million guns, then. Piece of cake. Shouldn’t take long at all. We are constantly reassured that they’re all “law-abiding citizens”. So they’ll abide by the law. Right? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2015, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/63 "2015-06-28T13:18:40Z")
To the often-repeated claim, or rather the often-repeated emotional and ungrounded retort, about so-called “defensive gun uses”, they amount to only about [1600 incidents per year](http://www.armedwithreason.com/debunking-the-defensive-gun-use-myth/). Roughly an order of magnitude fewer than offensive uses, IOW. But the need to be able to defend against the jackbooted thugs of a tyrannical government trumps all of that reality stuff, doesn’t it? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Uqbar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/a587f6/32.png) [@Uqbar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uqbar)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/64 "2015-06-29T02:44:17Z")
Thought a bit about the OP. My two nickels. ``` I see no disagreement, even from the pro-gun side, that America's gun culture is morally empty (America's gun culture--that is, all the information, media memes, traditions in communities, word of mouth, etc., to do with guns; you're welcome to rebut that moral emptiness of course.) So REBRAND America's gun culture. For example, address the moral vacuum, and give it more of a moral center. Right now the main value/"morality" seems to cluster around self-defense, with the usual corruptions of vengence, my-gun-makes-me-powerful, a go-to instrument whenever angry, threatened, etc. I think this approach can be effective because ``` [ul] [li]it can be done independent of changes in the legislation[/li][li]the more embedded and factious of the pro-gun groups seem to be operating as if the 2nd Amendment and the values around guns are sacred values, making them, in their faith-based mindset, very resilient to certain facts (a “faith” that is their right to practice, but not everyone else wants); but engagement over morals, values, etc., may be more [effective](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/opinion/sunday/t-m-luhrmann-faith-vs-facts.html?_r=0)[/li][/ul] ``` As far as execution, it probably has to be trial-and-error, community-by-community. For example contact houses of worship (who not only have the moral sensibility, but clout with the "right"/conservatives), and perhaps Everytown a/o the Brady Campaign (who have the money) in conjunction with a few Madison Ave ad execs (who have the sensibility wrt the overall culture, and could probably sell ice to Eskimos) could explore social media, TV and print, PSAs. You might also enjoin the CDC, the Surgeon General. If a message doesn't work, you redraft and try again. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/65 "2015-06-29T04:16:21Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Question for you: You are going to be materialized 20 yards away from a desperate escaped murderer with nothing to lose. The location: upstate New York, with typical-for-that-area surroundings–trees, buildings, what-have-you. There is “cover” around, in other words. > > You can be materialized in a clearing 20 yards from Murderer A–a good shot–who is facing you with a loaded shotgun in his hands. > > Or, you can be materialized in a clearing 20 yards from Murderer B–a good driver–who has stolen a Camry and is sitting behind the wheel. > > Do you have a preference? I would like to materialize in the real world where I can defend myself from either. That’s my preference. It doesn’t matter if a crackpot uses a gun or a car to try to kill someone. What matters is the ability to defend against that. We don’t have a problem with legitimate licensed gun owners. We have a problem with unlicensed criminals who will never obey the law. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/66 "2015-06-29T04:21:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > We are constantly reassured that they’re all “law-abiding citizens”. So they’ll abide by the law. Right? Are you willing to fight for your belief? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/67 "2015-06-29T06:11:10Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > What? You mean they’re bad? Christ, we should put laws into place saying they’re illegal, and arrest people who make/distribute/use them! Why don’t we do that??? Yes, laws are in place and we do arrest people who make/distribute/use them…thanks largely to the people ideologically aligned with gun ownership. People aligned with gun control/elimination more typically have among their numbers those prone to act like drugs are cool, work to reduce or eliminate sentences for drug crimes, and make fun of/resist efforts to dissuade people from using drugs. The pain and suffering of gays and transexuals is a fly speck compared to the pain, suffering, criminality and death caused by drugs, and if the left were motivated to deal with it they would bring all their PC guns to bear to portray drug use as evil and socially unacceptable. Yet I think you would agree the very idea of using PC tactics on drugs is so incongruous as to be laughable. > [@Ethilrist](#): > > In the majority of handgun deaths, the victim is the guy with his finger on the trigger: suicide. Try again. Evidently you didn’t notice but I was talking about the use of guns to commit murder. There’s a difference. Clearly no one feels the need to arm themselves in order to protect their homes from people committing suicide. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/68 "2015-06-29T12:47:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Are you willing to fight for your belief? Are you saying you are not a law-abiding citizen after all? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/69 "2015-06-29T12:57:14Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Are you saying you are not a law-abiding citizen after all? :dubious: Are you saying that you are one bad day away from being a murderer?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/70 "2015-06-29T13:21:35Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Evidently you didn’t notice but I was talking about the use of guns to commit murder. There’s a difference. Clearly no one feels the need to arm themselves in order to protect their homes from people committing suicide. Evidently we have different definitions of murder. Mine includes suicide. Did you know that if you own a gun, your chances of committing suicide are greater than your chances of using the gun to defend yourself? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/71 "2015-06-29T16:18:35Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Evidently we have different definitions of murder. Mine includes suicide. Did you know that if you own a gun, your chances of committing suicide are greater than your chances of using the gun to defend yourself? Who’s definition of murder should society use? Do you have a cite for your suicide vs defend yourself opinion? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/72 "2015-06-29T16:32:37Z")
> [@Uqbar](#): > > …and perhaps Everytown a/o the Brady Campaign (who have the money) in conjunction with a few Madison Ave ad execs (who have the sensibility wrt the overall culture, and could probably sell ice to Eskimos) could explore social media, TV and print, PSAs. You might also enjoin the CDC, the Surgeon General. If a message doesn’t work, you redraft and try again. The Brady bunch has repeatedly changed their name to distance themselves from all of the lies they’ve been caught telling. Bloomberg’s Everytown is another organization that uses every option, except telling the truth, to ban all firearms. But Bloomberg has 50 million to spend selling ice to the gun-ban zealots. The current 2nd Amendment debate has been ongoing since at least 1968, and the bottom line is that the anti-gun zealots simply do not have the votes to change the U.S. Constitution. When they promote the anti-2nd issue, they can’t even keep a majority of either house in Congress. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/73 "2015-06-29T16:33:45Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > We are constantly reassured that they’re all “law-abiding citizens”. So they’ll abide by the law. Right? What law? The law you don’t have the votes to pass? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/74 "2015-06-29T16:44:46Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Quote: Originally Posted by doorhinge > If people are not surprised that a person committed mass-murders, it’s important to find out why those family members, school authorities, neighbors, police, and legislators hadn’t been more proactive in getting these people help. > You are jumping to conclusions. In a few years, when someone comes out with a true crime book incorporating a biography of this man, then we’ll know. Until then, we don’t whether there were people trying hard to get him treatment, just as we don’t know if there was a gun enthusiast who taught him how to shoot. (post shortened) What’s-his-name wasn’t asking about this particular mass-murdering monster, but mass-murdering monsters in general. I think it’s important to find out why those I previously listed hadn’t been more proactive in getting these people help. Blaming an inanimate object for the decisions and actions of a mass-murdering monster, isn’t going to change anyone’s position, at this point in time. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/75 "2015-06-29T16:50:35Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > BTW, **doorhinge** , does your name rhyme with “orange” ? 🙂 > > Gun nuts do not impress with their cognitive power when they make this argument. One wonders what “weapon of choice” you refer to that would be able to cause nine quick deaths. Hand grenades? > > A huge number of gun homicides, gun suicides and gun accidents are deaths that _would not have happened without the gun_. This is obviously true in any event, but is amplified if we assume a positive correlation between gun-wielding and cowardice. (Recall one Doper afraid to travel overseas since he couldn’t bring his gun.) Some people don’t impress me with their cognitive abilities either. As has been said, ban guns and the monster will find something else. Don’t believe me? [No handguns here.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm) Hand Grenade? [Nope](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre), and [nope](http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/asia/china-railway-attack/) ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/76 "2015-06-29T17:08:26Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > Evidently we have different definitions of murder. Mine includes suicide. Did you know that if you own a gun, your chances of committing suicide are greater than your chances of using the gun to defend yourself? A unique and self-serving definition of murder, I must say. And yes, I’m aware that more people die from suicide than from murder. I have no idea what percentage of suicides die from gunshots however. I also have no idea how many more people would be robbed, raped, burgled, strangled or shot were the fear they might have a gun at hand lessened or removed. Are you really trying to argue for gun control so as to reduce suicide? I would think that by the time a person would become so despairing of life that they would kill themselves, they’d simply utilize one of the almost limitless other ways of doing so were a gun not at hand. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/77 "2015-06-29T17:19:01Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > [No handguns here.](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4581871.stm) > > Hand Grenade? [Nope](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre), and [nope](http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/asia/china-railway-attack/) No middles anywhere there, either. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/78 "2015-06-29T17:20:42Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > What law? The hypothetical one \*\*Magiver \*\*is suggesting he wouldn’t like and therefore wouldn’t abide by. Or you either, apparently. > [@](#): > > Blaming an inanimate object Who do you see doing that? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/79 "2015-06-29T17:30:18Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Are you really trying to argue for gun control so as to reduce suicide? I would think that by the time a person would become so despairing of life that they would kill themselves, they’d simply utilize one of the almost limitless other ways of doing so were a gun not at hand. I’d like there to be fewer incidences of gun violence. I’d like there to be a lower body count. I don’t think more guns will help that, but I think fewer guns might, and that better education of people who don’t take them seriously might as well. Cite that there are twice as many suicides as there are what everybody but me calls just plain murder: > **[The gun toll we’re ignoring: suicide - The Boston Globe](https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2013/01/20/the-gun-toll-ignoring-suicide/xeWBHDHEvvagfkRlU3CfZJ/story.html)** > > You wouldn’t know it from the national debate, but most American firearm deaths aren’t murder. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/80 "2015-06-29T17:40:30Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > …Who do you see doing that? Anyone who blames a suicide on a rope, gun, or gas pipe. It all sounds so surreal - _I am **ElvisL1ves** ’s toaster. I am making him hungry. I am making him eat between meals. I am a bad toaster. Ban all toasters_. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416.md?page=5)