# SC mass shooting (etc) informed by gun culture? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2015, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416 "2015-06-25T01:58:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/81 "2015-06-29T17:46:00Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Anyone who blames a suicide on a rope, gun, or gas pipe. Again, who do you see doing that? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/82 "2015-06-29T18:16:20Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > I’d like there to be fewer incidences of gun violence. I’d like there to be a lower body count. I don’t think more guns will help that, but I think fewer guns might, and that better education of people who don’t take them seriously might as well. I’d like there to be a less crime ridden society. Achieve that and a lower body count and lower gun ownership will follow. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/83 "2015-06-29T18:17:51Z")
Your approach to making society less crime-ridden being, well, what? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/84 "2015-06-29T18:22:29Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > I’d like there to be a less crime ridden society. Achieve that and a lower body count and lower gun ownership will follow. Agreed. And, just to clarify, I don’t give a rip how many guns are out there or who owns them, provided they’re securely stored and safely used. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/85 "2015-06-29T21:04:38Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Blaming an inanimate object for the decisions and actions of a mass-murdering monster, isn’t going to change anyone’s position, at this point in time. > [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Who do you see doing that? > [@doorhinge](#): > > Anyone who blames a suicide on a rope, gun, or gas pipe. > It all sounds so surreal - _I am **ElvisL1ves** ’s toaster. I am making him hungry. I am making him eat between meals. I am a bad toaster. Ban all toasters_. 😃 I see that you are in the habit of using yet another inanimate object: a straw man. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/86 "2015-06-29T23:01:25Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > I see that you are in the habit of using yet another inanimate object: a straw man. I’m not sure…what I think I see him saying is that if you’re going to blame murders on guns (or “gun culture”), then it must also make sense to blame suicides on guns as well. I have a real problem with this “gun culture” thing…I grew up in the south surrounded by lots of different people who had guns for lots of different reasons, and way different attitudes about them. So, I honestly have no idea what any particular speaker means when they say “gun culture”… Guns make you cool. Guns make you tough. Guns make you a Republican. Guns make you a survivalist. Guns make you a rebel. Guns make you ready for the zombie apocalypse. Guns make you able to defend yourself. Guns make you able to feed yourself. I think guns are definitely part of our culture, but to say that there is a “gun culture” and what exactly that is…I think it’s a leap, and I think it’s totally fair when someone talks about “the gun culture”, to ask them what they mean. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/87 "2015-06-29T23:58:56Z")
> [@Smartass](#): > > I’m not sure…what I think I see him saying is that if you’re going to blame murders on guns (or “gun culture”), then it must also make sense to blame suicides on guns as well. I’d be surprised if that’s what he’s saying, because that’s what opponents of ‘guns for all without restriction’ views DO tend to do: to blame suicides, as well as murders, on the over-availability of guns. His remarks, by contrast, use the straw man argument (that opponents of ‘guns without restriction’ views, supposedly, have irrational opinions about “objects.”) His straw man argument is on view here: > [@doorhinge](#): > > ``` > Blaming an inanimate object for the decisions and actions of a mass-murdering monster, isn't going to change anyone's position, at this point in time. > > ``` Of course if opponents of ‘guns without restrictions’ really DID blame “an inanimate object for the decisions and actions of a mass-murdering monster,” then their arguments to that effect would be as easy to refute as it is to knock over a straw man. (Hence the label.) Opponents of ‘guns without restrictions’ viewpoint hold no such opinions, of course. The person in question apparently finds it much easier to knock down the straw man ‘you think objects are in charge!’ than it would be to knock down the _actual_ arguments made by his opponents. > [@Smartass](#): > > I think it’s totally fair when someone talks about “the gun culture”, to ask them what they mean. I agree. Personally: when I talk about gun culture, I’m referring to a range of views that tend to coalesce around the position that guns should be freely available to all, with such potential restrictions as “background checks” being nominal, toothless, and easy to circumvent. I’m not talking about all people who own guns, because not all people who own guns hold such views. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/88 "2015-06-30T00:37:36Z")
> [@Uqbar](#): > > Specifically, how frequently it’s being advanced that an acceptable means to a feeling of power (or to power itself) is through the handle of a gun; or worse, esp by the more factious of the gun crowd, the response when you’re angry, frightened, threatened is to have that weapon ready for use, the power of this instrument to level differences, etc.; I’m having difficulty interpreting your question. That said, I’ve encountered at least one person who reported a feeling of power after letting out a clip at the shooting range. Flip through NRA propaganda and you can see that gun enthusiasm is celebrated and cultivated. Glance at the cover of most gun magazines and you will see, well, a promotion of guns that emphasizes a feeling of strength. Going from there to gun violence is a bit of a leap though. Disposable razors are promoted with similar enthusiasm. Many dudes are prone to fanaticism, be it for guns, model trains, cinema or whatever. So I don’t make much of the previous paragraph. I do wonder what share of mass shooters were members of gun lobbies. Not surprisingly, the NRA doesn’t publicize its membership records. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/89 "2015-06-30T03:27:20Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > I thought I made it, so I’ll make a different one. > > Stealing cars gets harder every few years as car locks get better. ] who said anything about steeling a car? And why do you think better locks stop that from happening? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/90 "2015-06-30T03:30:02Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Your approach to making society less crime-ridden being, well, what? Wait what? Are you implying that guns are the source of criminal intent? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/91 "2015-06-30T03:44:53Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The hypothetical one \*\*Magiver \*\*is suggesting he wouldn’t like and therefore wouldn’t abide by. Or you either, apparently. > > Who do you see doing that? We have a law, actually a constitutional right. Are you willing to fight against that? The United States was literally founded on these basic rights. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/92 "2015-06-30T13:28:47Z")
The right the National Guard has to be armed? From the amendment that didn’t exist when the United States was founded, or for decades later? Even under the original Constitution? That one? Any inconsistencies, ya think? If you are only willing to abide by laws you like, and are willing to kill to avoid abiding by laws you don’t like, then you have no right to claim to be law-abiding, do you? You can only claim to be a mortal danger to those of us who are. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/93 "2015-06-30T14:45:13Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > The right the National Guard has to be armed? From the amendment that didn’t exist when the United States was founded, or for decades later? Even under the original Constitution? That one? Any inconsistencies, ya think? (post shortened) The SCOTUS decisions District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008), and McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 742 (2010) determined that the 2nd Amendment actually did protect an individuals right to keep and bear arms for self-defense. That flushing sound you hear is your disproven theory that the 2nd Amendment only applied to the National Guard. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/94 "2015-06-30T14:50:39Z")
We shouldn’t arm the National Guard, either. They are only one bad day from murder. Right, ElvisL1ves? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/95 "2015-06-30T14:55:01Z")
Perhaps you could do yourself a favor and make your point directly. If, that is, you do have one, which is not at all apparent. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/96 "2015-06-30T15:08:23Z")
Just furthering your point that nobody can be trusted with guns. Nobody does mean nobody, right? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/97 "2015-06-30T15:28:24Z")
Some much more so than others. People with training and discipline, as part of, oh, let’s say well-regulated militias, are of course much less untrustworthy than individual borderline or actual psycho cases, harboring delusions of being “the good guys” in movies-only scenarios, or resisting government tyranny, and so forth. Is that not obvious to you as well? I would like to see fewer people get killed every year. There is an obvious, effective approach to doing that, one which pretty much the entire civilized world uses to great effect. Do you share that goal, and if so, what realistic alternative approach do you offer instead? The problem isn’t complicated, the only issue is who wants to be part of the solution instead. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/98 "2015-06-30T16:02:31Z")
Gee, it’s almost like you don’t realize that National Guardsmen et. al. are just regular people. They are part of the great, amorphous “nobody.” Perhaps they, and cops, are even less trustworthy because we give them guns and their jobs are almost nothing but bad days. It also seems like your main idea has some serious holes in it. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/99 "2015-06-30T16:09:52Z")
> [@Sherrerd](#): > > Personally: when I talk about gun culture, I’m referring to a range of views that tend to coalesce around the position that guns should be freely available to all, with such potential restrictions as “background checks” being nominal, toothless, and easy to circumvent. I think this right here is the key. When there are debates on gun control–and I’ve seen a lot of them over the years–there never is much talk about what is reasonable, because the debate always turns into a straw man battle between “those who believe there should be no restrictions on gun ownership for anybody” and “those who believe no one should be allowed to have a gun.” If there’s ever going to be a legitimate debate, it’s going to require sweeping the straw men from the field somehow. It’s hard to argue that people with a demonstrated penchant for violence or inability to control their tempers–or that are crazy as bedbugs–really have any business with guns. However, if you say that, then you’ve opened yourself up to the straw man of “these measures would prevent all violent crime.” Much like the straw man of “gun ownership causes all violent crime.” To me, there’s an easy obvious comparison to driver’s licenses. Before we give them out, we think it’s reasonable to insist that people demonstrate an understanding of how to operate a vehicle safely. And if they wreak havoc on the roads, then we don’t have qualms about taking away that license. Driving is not a right, it’s a privilege. Specifically, a privilege with fairly minimal requirements that we don’t take away from people arbitrarily. In practice, it is more like a “right” that you can lose (just like your personal freedom is a right you can lose). To me, the core of the gun debate is recognizing that “the right to bear arms” is not an inalienable right–it’s a right that you demonstrate competence for and that can be taken away. I also think that the whole legal discussion has been derailed by endless controversy over “this gun” vs “that gun” and the mythical “assault weapons”. I’ve always thought that was a red herring, because–barring the obviously higher body counts you can get with fully automatic weapons–you can assault and kill lots of people with damn near any modern gun, particularly if you’ve planned out your approach. For me, the issue is not whether people have the wrong guns; it’s whether they’re the wrong people. Can we unfailingly identify all the wrong people before they manage to do any harm? Of course not. Just like we can’t unfailingly identify all the bad drivers before THEY do any harm. That, in and of itself, is not a good reason to just throw our hands up in the air. However, I have seen, time and time again, that if this comes up, the “no gun control” advocates throw up a list of crimes that would NOT have been prevented by better gun control, as if any approach that can be shown to not be perfect is automatically invalid. The question really deserves something better than a straw-man battle. It deserves legitimate debate over what makes sense and what doesn’t. What types of restrictions reduce the most harm while infringing on the “right to bear arms” the least? And then there’s the “criminal environment” that we’ve created. I personally believe that the Drug War has led to more violence in this country (and elsewhere) than any other single thing. If we didn’t put so much effort into guaranteeing profits to criminals, then there wouldn’t be so many of them with really big (illegal) guns, because they wouldn’t be able to afford them. -VM ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416/100 "2015-06-30T17:48:47Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Gee, it’s almost like you don’t realize that National Guardsmen et. al. are just regular people. No, I certainly do. No human can be _absolutely_ trusted with a tool of death, and that includes those with massive and focused training and discipline and leadership. > [@](#): > > Perhaps they, and cops, are even less trustworthy because we give them guns and their jobs are almost nothing but bad days. That’s where the training and the discipline come into it. Been over that, you know. Might try digesting it a little. And then answer the question about your own proposed solutions, or even your recognition of a problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-mass-shooting-etc-informed-by-gun-culture/723416.md?page=6)