# SC voter ID law shot down
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [December 23, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222 "2011-12-23T22:42:28Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 12
### Author:  [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/221 "2011-12-30T03:09:46Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> No.
>
> I often wonder what neutral readers think of these sorts of tactics. It is obvious to any observer that the possibility of voter fraud is present in any election, but the possibility of a shark attack in Topeka, Kansas is non-existent.
Pfft. Shows what you know. [Shark Atttack! (Topeka, KS)](http://www.myspace.com/sharkatttackks)
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/222 "2011-12-30T03:17:20Z")
> [@Acsenray](#):
>
> I’m not sure that when debating the policy question of whether X should be a law that X is already a law is a valid argument.
It’s not.
But in reviewing the OP, it appears to me to not focus on the policy question, but on the actual operation and existence of law.
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### Author:  [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/223 "2011-12-30T03:23:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> No.
>
> I often wonder what neutral readers think of these sorts of tactics. It is obvious to any observer that the possibility of voter fraud is present in any election, but the possibility of a shark attack in Topeka, Kansas is non-existent.
I credit my shark repellant for that. Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Are there sharks? I bet there’s a zoo somewhere in the midwest. An aquarium? How do you know sharks aren’t being smuggled into rivers and deltas and lakes all over Kansas? If there’s water and people then there’s a non-zero chance of a shark attack
Tell me its impossible that someone would smuggle out a shark to a body of water and I’ll tell you that I care just as much about that chance as voter fraud
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/224 "2011-12-30T03:36:58Z")
Those of you are not yet aware of ALEC, the American Legislative Exchange Council, should look them up. They have been actively pressing for just this kind of legislation across the nation. At the very forefront of the effort to, ah, stem voter fraud. You’ll never guess which political party they are most closely aligned with. OK, that was a lucky guess, but you’ll never ever guess where they get all that money!
Damn, you’re good.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/225 "2011-12-30T03:58:42Z")
Its possible, I suppose, to believe that this is nothing other than a sincere effort to stem voter fraud. And that the impact on Dem leaning voters is a mere accident, a sort of negative serendipity. Hey, shit happens!
If anybody present does in fact believe that, please contact me here, as I have some excellent investment opportunities to offer.
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/226 "2011-12-30T04:00:13Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> Correct. It is my opinion.
>
> But guess who shares my opinion?
>
> State legislators in sufficient numbers to make law, and federal judges in sufficient number to rule, bindingly, that the laws are Constitutionally sound, and voters in sufficient numbers to keep those legislators in office.
>
> In short: my opinion is also fact in every way that matters.
So when the political pendulum swings the other way, and laws and court decisions are overturned, the facts change? What a strange, capricious world you live in, where facts are mutable and ever-changing!
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### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/227 "2011-12-30T04:07:17Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> Its possible, I suppose, to believe that this is nothing other than a sincere effort to stem voter fraud. And that the impact on Dem leaning voters is a mere accident, a sort of negative serendipity. Hey, shit happens!
>
> If anybody present does in fact believe that, please contact me here, as I have some excellent investment opportunities to offer.
I was just wondering whether the Voter ID laws in Belgium, Italy or Greece are also directed at “Dem leaning voters”.
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### Author:  [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/228 "2011-12-30T04:11:24Z")
hmmm, well, I’m pretty sure that Belgium, Italy and Greece all have a national ID system where the same ID one uses for buying booze, also works for national healthcare, voter ID, driver’s license, etc. You wouldn’t want to go down that slippery slope now would you?
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/229 "2011-12-30T04:12:00Z")
You know, now that you mention it, **Fear** , who knows who the residents of gated communities really are? I mean, if poor people can fake this stuff so easily, how much easier would it be for people with money? We really need to suspend voting rights for such persons until a full and complete investigation is done.
What’s that? Why, no, of course not, we are not tilting the field for political advantage, that would be wrong! That it falls on a particular bunch of people is purely an accident! In fact, we’re a little hurt that you would even suggest such a thing.
Maybe you should be spokesperson on this one, when I bat big brown innocent eyes, people call the cops.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/230 "2011-12-30T04:13:11Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#):
>
> hmmm, well, I’m pretty sure that Belgium, Italy and Greece all have a national ID system where the same ID one uses for buying booze, also works for national healthcare, voter ID, driver’s license, etc. You wouldn’t want to go down that slippery slope now would you?
Gotta say, I’m tempted. As much as the notion creeps me out, and it does, lot to be said for it.
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### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/231 "2011-12-30T04:28:30Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#):
>
> hmmm, well, I’m pretty sure that Belgium, Italy and Greece all have a national ID system where the same ID one uses for buying booze, also works for national healthcare, voter ID, driver’s license, etc. You wouldn’t want to go down that slippery slope now would you?
But you see, China Guy, all these people insist that showing ID when voting accomplishes nothing, since there is no significant fraud that is prevented by doing that. So why do you think those countries are doing it? I say it’s to suppress the Democrat vote in the United States, since people here seem to be convinced that that is the only reason to advocate such measures.
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### Author:  [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/232 "2011-12-30T04:30:35Z")
I think those countries could give a flying fuck about the US. Not quite sure how that helps your point unless you can prove those countries set up a national ID system for the purpose of preventing voter fraud, and that voter fraud was an actual issue in all three of those countries. Care to make that point?
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### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/233 "2011-12-30T04:34:47Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#):
>
> I think those countries could give a flying fuck about the US. Not quite sure how that helps your point unless you can prove those countries set up a national ID system for the purpose of preventing voter fraud, and that voter fraud was an actual issue in all three of those countries. Care to make that point?
Point: why do you think those countries require ID in order to vote, if not to prevent voter fraud?
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### Author:  [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/234 "2011-12-30T04:41:26Z")
> [@Terr](#):
>
> Point: why do you think those countries require ID in order to vote, if not to prevent voter fraud?
Point: those countries require a national ID for a whole variety of reasons. One advantage is that it can aid in preventing voter fraud, if indeed voter fraud is an actual issue. There are a whole host of advantages to having national ID, including a bunch that law and order types should get behind.
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### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/235 "2011-12-30T04:48:28Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#):
>
> Point: those countries require a national ID for a whole variety of reasons. One advantage is that it can aid in preventing voter fraud, if indeed voter fraud is an actual issue. There are a whole host of advantages to having national ID, including a bunch that law and order types should get behind.
I am not asking you why they have national ID. I am asking you why they require voters to show ID when they vote. After all, I am assured, repeatedly, in this thread, that there is no fraud that such measures prevent - so why do all these countries require ID to vote?
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/236 "2011-12-30T05:16:13Z")
Because its so normal? Everybody has an ID, they show it all the time, to buy booze, to buy cigarettes, at all official type functions. Also, you don’t have to spell your name, they can read it right off the card.
Everybody already has one. They don’t have to go get one. Every effort is made to assure that they have one.
See any such effort here? See any plan for outreach, to get the proper cards into the proper hands, so that no harm is done?
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/237 "2011-12-30T05:26:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> When a voting system has no safeguards to ensure only qualified persons cast votes, it undermines confidence in the valdiity and integrity of the outcome.
If you are concerned about undermining confidence in the validity and integrity of the outcome of an election, there’s an excellent place for you to focus your attention: you should focus your attention on the fearmongering about voter fraud. That fearmongering–convincing the ignorant that plenty of the wrong people are illegally voting–is ACTUALLY undermining confidence in elections. Actual voter fraud is, in any significant numbers, nonexistent.
Of course, if you want to focus on illegal actions that undermine confidence in elections, there are plenty of dirty tricks played by political actors. Since those are a real problem (lemme know if you need cites), attention should be focused there first.
> [@](#):
>
> It depends on HOW the law reduces the number of voters. If the law is reasonable and neutral in its application, then the fact that it happens to impact minority, poor, and young voters is fine.
If the government should reflect the will of the people, then any flaw in elections that disproportionately affects a particular voting block is worse than a flaw that affects people randomly. Keep in mind that I’m not making a legal statement here; I’m discussing the underlying philosophical idea of democracy.
The effects are threefold:
1. Individuals are harmed when they are prevented from voting.
2. The nation is harmed when political outcomes do not accurately reflect its citizens.
3. Groups are harmed when they see their members disproportionately cut out of elections; the sense of disenfranchisement can make these groups less willing to support the democratic experiment.
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### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/238 "2011-12-30T05:28:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> Because its so normal? Everybody has an ID, they show it all the time, to buy booze, to buy cigarettes, at all official type functions.
Just like in the US. But the question is why require it?
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/239 "2011-12-30T16:09:10Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#):
>
> I credit my shark repellant for that. Just because you don’t see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Are there sharks? I bet there’s a zoo somewhere in the midwest. An aquarium? How do you know sharks aren’t being smuggled into rivers and deltas and lakes all over Kansas? If there’s water and people then there’s a non-zero chance of a shark attack
>
> Tell me its impossible that someone would smuggle out a shark to a body of water and I’ll tell you that I care just as much about that chance as voter fraud
That’s fine with me. Care about whatever you like.
But if you winder why those cares of yours do not seem to persuade too many other people, while my cares seem to have persuaded a vast swath of the voting public, you have only to re-read this thread to get your answer.
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### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [December 30, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/240 "2011-12-30T16:12:24Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#):
>
> So when the political pendulum swings the other way, and laws and court decisions are overturned, the facts change? What a strange, capricious world you live in, where facts are mutable and ever-changing!
Sure. Our history is full of such examples. We now consider it cruel and unusual punishment to apply the death penalty to cases other than murder; in our early history, we did not.
If laws and court decisions on this issue change, it will mean that society regards the burdens involved as heavier than it it thinks they are now. I have no problem with that concept at all. This is not a statement of the value of Planck’s constant; it’s a statement of society’s views.
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