# SC voter ID law shot down
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [December 23, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222 "2011-12-23T22:42:28Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 20
### Author:  [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)
#### Post date: [January 2, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/381 "2012-01-02T21:06:24Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#):
>
> Putting through a Constitutional amendment prohibiting the ownership of slaves was a dramatically more minor change then abolishing fifty state governments, fifty court systems, several hundred departments of education, countless law enforcement agencies, fifty different departments of Labor, hundreds of other state departments which I can’t even think of and abolishing thousands if not tens of thousands of various state laws and imposing tens of thousands of laws on people who were unused to them.
>
> To give one really minor example, Left Hand predicted the values of the people of Rhode Island and Massachussetts would be foisted on the people of Tennessee and Texas. I’m not sure how the people of Memphis and Austin will like being told they can’t buy alcohol from corner stores and that liquor stores will be closed on Sunday.
>
> Perhaps it’s stupid of me to think this, but it seems to me that if the people of New Hampshire want to be able to buy beer and wine at supermarkets while the people of Rhode Island want businesses on Sunday to pay time and a half and for liquor stores to be closed on Sunday then so be it.
Changing the way states are represented in congress or presidential elections wouldn’t result in any of this happening. Nice strawman though.
---
### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [January 2, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/382 "2012-01-02T21:13:18Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#):
>
> To give one really minor example, Left Hand predicted the values of the people of Rhode Island and Massachussetts would be foisted on the people of Tennessee and Texas.
Bullshit. I said no such thing. Substitute specifics for “the values,” and you’ll have an accurate paraphrase, but then you won’t be able to go to the absurd conclusion you want to go to.
---
### Author:  [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2012, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/383 "2012-01-03T01:27:36Z")
> [@Terr](#):
>
> In other words, states should decide for themselves how they take care of this.
And this exemplifies part of why so very few are able to take you seriously.
You don’t really believe this, ISTM. You advocate in favor of voter ID laws, using instances of (supposed) voter fraud from all across the country (although I don’t think you ever found even one that came from the state in question, to the best of my recollection; to be honest, I stopped looking at your cites after I debunked the first couple of batches of them). Yet you also want us to believe that states should decide for themselves what to do about (the nearly nonexistent, unimpactful) voter fraud problem.
Obviously it’s not a big enough problem that it warrants a “solution”, even for you, otherwise you would advocate that all states have voter ID laws.
---
### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2012, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/384 "2012-01-03T01:44:53Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#):
>
> And this exemplifies part of why so very few are able to take you seriously.
>
> You don’t really believe this, ISTM. You advocate in favor of voter ID laws, using instances of (supposed) voter fraud from all across the country (although I don’t think you ever found even one that came from the state in question, to the best of my recollection; to be honest, I stopped looking at your cites after I debunked the first couple of batches of them). Yet you also want us to believe that states should decide for themselves what to do about (the nearly nonexistent, unimpactful) voter fraud problem.
Of course they should. What I think is immaterial - what the states decide is. What I object to is federal government dictating to states how they should conduct these matters.
> [@](#):
>
> Obviously it’s not a big enough problem that it warrants a “solution”, even for you, otherwise you would advocate that all states have voter ID laws.
Apparently you can’t distinguish opinion from advocacy.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2012, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/385 "2012-01-03T02:21:55Z")
Well, yeah. The fact that there are dead people on the voter rolls in Oakland CA is clear proof that likely Democrat voters need to be constrained in South Carolina. You just have to connect the dot.
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### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/386 "2012-01-03T20:29:24Z")
I may have missed it in the now 8 pages of this thread.
Why would voter ID laws disenfranchise so many voters?
According to South Carolina’s site, ID cards for anyone of voting age is [free](http://www.scdmvonline.com/DMVNew/default.aspx?n=fees).
Yes their Form 447 requires a physical address, but I would think that that would be true for anyone claiming to be a resident of that state.
So are the numbers based on who doesn’t have ID or can’t get ID?
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### Author:  [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/387 "2012-01-03T20:58:02Z")
> [@Terr](#):
>
> Of course they should. What I think is immaterial - what the states decide is.
Do you not grok that what you think _does_ matter, since we live in a democracy? One where, ya know, the people we elect are there to do what the populace wants?
> [@Terr](#):
>
> What I object to is federal government dictating to states how they should conduct these matters.
See above.
> [@Terr](#):
>
> Apparently you can’t distinguish opinion from advocacy.
No, I can do that just fine. To try and claim after 8 pages of this that you aren’t advocating in favor of voter ID laws is just ridiculous.
---
### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/388 "2012-01-03T21:13:22Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> I may have missed it in the now 8 pages of this thread.
> Why would voter ID laws disenfranchise so many voters?
> According to South Carolina’s site, ID cards for anyone of voting age is [free](http://www.scdmvonline.com/DMVNew/default.aspx?n=fees).
> Yes their Form 447 requires a physical address, but I would think that that would be true for anyone claiming to be a resident of that state.
>
> So are the numbers based on who doesn’t have ID or can’t get ID?
Fun scavenger hunt idea:
Pretend you don’t have any photo ID at all. That means, incidentally, that you can’t drive, and you probably don’t have a car. You live in poverty. You don’t have a social security card or copy of your birth certificate.
Gather everything you need in order to get one and take it to the nearest DMV. Track both your expenses and your time.
You need to get one item from each category (assuming you’re a US citizen, which you need to be for this to be relevant:
> [@Category 1](#):
>
> Birth Certificate with birth/file number and registrar’s signature issued by the county or Bureau of Vital Statistics.
> • Birth Certificate from U.S. Territory (Must be translated if not in English) - Puerto Rico, Guam, U.S. Virgin Islands and U.S. Samoa.
> • Delayed birth certificate – If birth certificate is not issued at time of birth, customer can apply for birth certificate from Bureau of Vital Statistics
> • U.S. government issued Consular Report of Birth Abroad.
> • Certificate of Citizenship (N-560 or N-561).
> [@Category 2--any one of these items must include SSN](#):
>
> • Social Security Card.
> • SSA-1099 - “Survivor Benefit Form”.
> • Letter from Social Security Administration (requires online verification)
> • Medicare letter from Social Security Administration (requires online verification).
> • Medicare Card (requires online verification).
> • Payroll Stub must include employer’s name and applicant’s name (requires online verification).
> • W-2 Form must include employer’s name, address, and applicant’s name (requires online verification).
> [@Category 3](#):
>
> Proof of Residency - All documents must show name and S.C. address of applicant… [for you, just get something that shows your address with state]
> • School Records - Records must be from S.C. school (current or prior school year).
>
> - Student ID (address not required).
> - Report Card.
> - Letter or contract from Home Schooling Association.
> - Official letter from individual’s school or school district on school or district letterhead.
> - Certified transcript.
> - Diploma from S.C. school (child has graduated within the last school year - address not required).
> • Out-of-state or in-state tuition bill with applicant’s S.C. physical address.
> • Current employment records (no more than 90 days old). (Records must be from S.C. employer or have S.C. address for applicant on records from an out of state employer).
> - Letter on employer letterhead.
> - Payroll stub showing S.C. withholdings.
> - Intent to hire on employer letterhead.
> • Current utility bill no more than 90 days old. A utility bill is specific to services for your residence. Examples are electric, water, sewage, cable, and land line phone lines. Cell phone and satellite bills are not acceptable.
> • S.C. Medicaid card
> • Parolee Card or letter from parole officer (no more than 90 days old).
> • Home mortgage documents (no more than 90 days old).
> • Current S.C. Weapon’s Permit
> • County Tax Notice or Property Receipt for home
> • State or Federal Tax records.
> - Income tax returns for current or prior year are acceptable including electronic tax file or W2.
> - If applicant listed as dependent on SC tax return that is presented as proof of residency, proof applies to dependent also.
> • Current Military Orders detailing active duty assignment in S.C.
> • Current letter from Military Base with the commander verifying duty station in S.C.
> • S.C. bank statement or signed letter (must be on bank letterhead) showing name of applicant and S.C. physical address (no more than 90 days old).
> • Social security check showing name and S.C. physical address of applicant (no more than 90 days old).
> • Insurance documentation (no more than 90 days old).
> - Letter from insurance company or agent licensed to do business in S.C. stating name of applicant and indicating S.C. address of applicant
> - Insurance policy, written by insurance company or agent licensed to do business in S.C. showing name of applicant and S.C. address
> • Letter from director of S.C. social welfare institution (homeless shelter, battered women’s shelter, halfway house, group home, orphanage, etc.) stating applicant is resident of facility (no more than 90 days old).
> • Vehicle Insurance Card (only if S.C. address and customer’s name appear on card).
> • Article of mail with official Post Office address change label
If you don’t want to engage in this process, how much would I have to pay you to get you to do it? What would you estimate as your time and expenditures to get at least one thing from each category, without benefit of a car?
Make it trickier–let’s say you lack Internet access at your home.
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### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/389 "2012-01-03T21:48:33Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#):
>
> Fun scavenger hunt idea:
>
> Pretend you don’t have any photo ID at all. That means, incidentally, that you can’t drive, and you probably don’t have a car. You live in poverty. You don’t have a social security card or copy of your birth certificate.
First of all, if you don’t have a birth certificate or other way to establish ID, you’re screwed for a lot of reasons. If you don’t have your SS card, how are you getting a job. To me, that would make it a priority to get that paperwork straightened out regardless of whether or not I want to vote.
Replacement SS card is a relative non-issue. Call the Social Security Administration and get the form SS-5 and send in with your birth certificate. Cost? Call to 411 and the price of a stamp.
The key is to get a birth certificate. Counties vary in procedure so I’ll use my birth county (Los Angeles County, CA) and see what I need to do to get a copy without leaving Denver. I call the Registrar-Recorder and get an application and Certificate of Identity. Cost? Call to 411 and a long distance call, the cost of a notary, the price of a stamp and $21 for the application.
So if you can afford 2 calls to information + 1 LD call, 2 stamps, the cost of a notary public and $21 m/l, you can get your birth certificate and social security card. Less than $50 bucks to get the three most valuable pieces of ID you need. How many people in South Carolina cannot do that?
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### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/390 "2012-01-03T21:57:28Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#):
>
> Fun scavenger hunt idea:
>
> Pretend you don’t have any photo ID at all. That means, incidentally, that you can’t drive, and you probably don’t have a car. You live in poverty. You don’t have a social security card or copy of your birth certificate.
>
> Gather everything you need in order to get one and take it to the nearest DMV. Track both your expenses and your time.
>
> If you don’t want to engage in this process, how much would I have to pay you to get you to do it? What would you estimate as your time and expenditures to get at least one thing from each category, without benefit of a car?
>
> Make it trickier–let’s say you lack Internet access at your home.
A question: if you want to vote, and the voting is allowed only for US citizens, and you have no way to show that you are a US citizen - why should you be allowed to vote?
---
### Author:  [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2012, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/391 "2012-01-03T22:03:56Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> So if you can afford 2 calls to information + 1 LD call, 2 stamps, the cost of a notary public and $21 m/l, you can get your birth certificate and social security card. Less than $50 bucks to get the three most valuable pieces of ID you need. How many people in South Carolina cannot do that?
Do you realize that $50 is a lot of money for some people? Like “I’ll have to decide if I want to vote or eat this week” kind of money?
Also (this is not directed at you specifically, but just a general question): how do people who live on the street or in homeless shelters prove residency?
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2012, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/392 "2012-01-03T23:16:23Z")
> [@Terr](#):
>
> A question: if you want to vote, and the voting is allowed only for US citizens, and you have no way to show that you are a US citizen - why should you be allowed to vote?
You haven’t retracted your ridiculous untruth about what I said earlier in the thread, so I see no reason to believe you’re asking this question in good faith now.
---
### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/393 "2012-01-03T23:17:55Z")
> [@Skammer](#):
>
> Do you realize that $50 is a lot of money for some people? Like “I’ll have to decide if I want to vote or eat this week” kind of money?
And my point is if someone is in that position (and a lot of Americans are) where they cannot afford $50 to get proper ID, the issue is not voting but what are we doing to help them to survive. As unamerican as this may sound, as a member of my community I would worry more about their day-to-day survival than what they do the second Tuesday of November every 4 years.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2012, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/394 "2012-01-03T23:27:17Z")
All of these issues could have been easily addressed and resolved, if that was the point of the exercise. No such effort has been made, no such effort is contemplated. Those who approve of this transparently partisan legislation are at great pains to change the subject, they would like to have us argue whether or not providing proof is a legitimate concern. Even a legitimate concern can be perverted, and when a legitimate concern is perverted into an exercise in partisan political shenanigans, we are all the lesser for it.
For instance, the suggestions I outlined above. They seem eminently practical to me, and no one has yet suggested otherwise. If the SC Republicans wanted to clarify and ensure the voter rolls without doing damage to the rights of disadvantaged SC citizens, rights they are sworn to protect, I hasten to remind…they could have done so. Anyone see them so much as lifting a finger to do so?
To be sure, they are lifting a finger, but its a different sort of gesture altogether.
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### Author:  [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/395 "2012-01-03T23:31:54Z")
> [@Terr](#):
>
> A question: if you want to vote, and the voting is allowed only for US citizens, and you have no way to show that you are a US citizen - why should you be allowed to vote?
Of course, depends on whether the State one resides in requires proof of citizenship to vote. As citied above, North Dakota does not have this requirement (and possibly more States). But no, that would be giving power to the Federal government to have standardized voting requirements.
Obviously, it’s much better to have bastardized voting requirements in a State by State fashion. Then one could selectively lobby and enforce laws that benefit a specific party instead of a level playing field.
Terr, consistency would be nice. Why aren’t you up in arms about all potential vote fraud instead of selectively focused on that which will blatantly benefit the Republican Party?
---
### Author:  [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)
#### Post date: [January 3, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/396 "2012-01-03T23:32:53Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> So if you can afford 2 calls to information + 1 LD call, 2 stamps, the cost of a notary public and $21 m/l, you can get your birth certificate and social security card. Less than $50 bucks to get the three most valuable pieces of ID you need. How many people in South Carolina cannot do that?
A. Quite a few, difficult as it may be to believe, and
B. How would you differentiate those costs from a poll tax, which is flatly unconstitutional?
---
### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/397 "2012-01-04T00:42:31Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#):
>
> You haven’t retracted your ridiculous untruth about what I said earlier in the thread, so I see no reason to believe you’re asking this question in good faith now.
Another inability to answer the question noted.
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### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/398 "2012-01-04T00:44:33Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#):
>
> Of course, depends on whether the State one resides in requires proof of citizenship to vote. As citied above, North Dakota does not have this requirement (and possibly more States). But no, that would be giving power to the Federal government to have standardized voting requirements.
I am not asking about the legality of having that person vote. I am asking, if someone cannot show to you that he is a citizen, why (outside of the legality of it) should he be allowed to vote?
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/399 "2012-01-04T00:47:04Z")
Mighty rich, considering your post 390 in response to post 388.
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### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/400 "2012-01-04T00:53:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#):
>
> Mighty rich, considering your post 390 in response to post 388.
Post 388, when condensed to tl;dr, said “it costs money to show you’re a citizen that is eligible to vote”.
So I asked - if you cannot show you’re a citizen eligible to vote, should you be allowed to vote?
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