# SC voter ID law shot down
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222
**Category:** Politics & Elections
**Created:** [December 23, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222 "2011-12-23T22:42:28Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 23
### Author:  [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/441 "2012-01-04T19:21:23Z")
> [@Terr](#):
>
> Absentee voter fraud? Probably hundreds of thousands.
Did you mean “hundreds or thousands?” I’m sure that’s what you meant, otherwise you would have provided a cite.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/442 "2012-01-04T19:27:24Z")
> [@Terr](#):
>
> …I answered that exact question upthread…
Is there a problem with “yes” or “no”?
> [@](#):
>
> …I don’t really see it impacting (as in preventing from voting) almost any voters. At least you could not point me to even one such, even though these laws have been around for almost a decade…
“Almost”? Suddenly, we get all fuzzy. How many is “almost”? Mr Holder, quoting South Carolina’s statistics, says upwards of eighty thousand. He’s lying?
And if these laws have been around as long as you say, and yet the dreadful scourge of voter fraud still haunts your fevered imagination…doesn’t seem like they’ve done much good, now have they?
---
### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/443 "2012-01-04T19:27:45Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#):
>
> Did you mean “hundreds or thousands?” I’m sure that’s what you meant, otherwise you would have provided a cite.
I meant hundreds of thousands. I can give you a thousand of cites for absentee voter fraud. That’s discovered absentee voter fraud. For every such case there are hundreds of undiscovered fraudulent ballots.
---
### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/444 "2012-01-04T19:30:01Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> Is there a problem with “yes” or “no”?
Yes there is. You refused, upthread, to answer my question. Why should I extend that courtesy to you?
> [@](#):
>
> “Almost”? Suddenly, we get all fuzzy. How many is “almost”? Mr Holder, quoting South Carolina’s statistics, says upwards of eighty thousand. He’s lying?
He does not show even one person who is a registered voter with no ID, no intention to get an ID, and wants to vote.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/445 "2012-01-04T19:30:44Z")
There are? I don’t suppose you have a…no, of course you don’t, if you did you wouldn’t make us drag it out of you.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/446 "2012-01-04T19:37:54Z")
> [@Terr](#):
>
> Yes there is. You refused, upthread, to answer my question. Why should I extend that courtesy to you?..
Well, I would do it to support the integrity of my argument. Courtesy doesn’t enter into it, frankly. However, I am mindful of your limitations, in that my argument has integrity.
> [@](#):
>
> …He does not show even one person who is a registered voter with no ID, no intention to get an ID, and wants to vote.
Is he supposed to? Is he supposed to talk about Ms. Jane Doe, of 1225 Apple St? Why would we assume that of 80,000 plus people who are likely to be impacted, not one of them fits your rather strict criteria? And how to we judge someone’s “intentions” to vote. Maybe today, they might not be inclined, maybe tomorrow, they are so inclined. So?
---
### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/447 "2012-01-04T19:39:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> Well, I would do it to support the integrity of my argument. Courtesy doesn’t enter into it, frankly.
You didn’t care enough to support the integrity of yours.
> [@](#):
>
> Is he supposed to? Is he supposed to talk about Ms. Jane Doe, of 1225 Apple St?
It would certainly provide much more evidence than “statistics”. I gave you cites of documented cases of voter fraud. You know, where dead INDIVIDUALS voted. Not “statistics”.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/448 "2012-01-04T19:42:35Z")
Well, Heaven knows, we can’t rely on “statistics”. So, boiled down, he’s lying?
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/449 "2012-01-04T19:46:30Z")
Oh, and so is the _NY Times_? And by the way, where did you get your numbers of “thousands” of absentee voter frauds for the hundreds “discovered”? Not “statistics”, I hope? Such a debased currency, “statistics”, especially with quotes around it.
Better we should rely on your intuition, and numbers you pull out of your ass.
---
### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/450 "2012-01-04T19:51:23Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> Well, Heaven knows, we can’t rely on “statistics”. So, boiled down, he’s lying?
No, he’s not giving any proof of even one person who was prevented from voting by these laws.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/451 "2012-01-04T19:57:11Z")
Why is he obliged to? Because **Terr** say so? As the Salon article noted, and we cited, SC has presented no evidence that voter fraud is a problem. How come he has to meet your standard, and they don’t? And note well, its their numbers! Perhaps they should have cited the dreadful cases in Oakland, CA. Or maybe they didn’t want to appear silly.
---
### Author:  [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/452 "2012-01-04T20:30:50Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#):
>
> Every time I see a thread about voter ID in the US I’m always baffled by how so many people in the richest, most powerful nation in the history of humanity are defeated by the simple proposition of providing its voters with ID.
>
> Here in Peru, were voting is compulsory, the National ID (which is also voter ID) costs about 10 bucks (but it’s free for poor people), you can fill the form on the internet (web-challenged people can either do it by hand or pay 2 bucks for a guy in an internet place to do it). ID places are open like any other gov’t office. In my (coming out of being) poor country can do it, why can’t Americans?
>
> I understand the political and electoral aspects of the discussion, but free voter ID shouyld not be a problem.
What documents do the poor have to show to get the “free” ID there?
The US doesn’t have a centralized records system. Someone born in Alaska will always have to deal with Alaska when getting a birth certificate, for example, and they won’t be able to get an ID in South Carolina unless they buy a birth certificate from Alaska first. But, as it happens, you can’t get an [Alaska birth certificate](http://hss.state.ak.us/dph/bvs/birth/default.htm) without photo ID, which you can’t generally get without a birth certificate. It also costs $25, no exceptions.
---
### Author:  [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/453 "2012-01-04T20:36:33Z")
> [@Terr](#):
>
> I meant hundreds of thousands. I can give you a thousand of cites for absentee voter fraud. That’s discovered absentee voter fraud. For every such case there are hundreds of undiscovered fraudulent ballots.
Hundreds? Are you sure it isn’t thousands? Or millions? Or tens? Pick one and tell us exactly how you arrived at that order of magnitude.
Anyway, let’s take up residence in your imaginary world for a moment and presume this is true. Don’t you agree that it’s a huge waste of energy and expense for states to be pushing these voter ID laws that attack the smallest part of the fraud problem rather than the greatest? Why do you suppose they have their priorities backward? I’m sure we don’t need a whole new thread just to get your insights on these questions.
---
### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/454 "2012-01-04T20:39:00Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> Why is he obliged to? Because **Terr** say so?
You demand much higher proof that voter fraud exists (as in “actual cases”) than you want from Halter (“potential cases”). Why is that?
---
### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/455 "2012-01-04T20:41:44Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#):
>
> Hundreds? Are you sure it isn’t thousands? Or millions? Or tens? Pick one and tell us exactly how you arrived at that order of magnitude.
Common sense. Is every case of absentee fraud caught? No. That means there are a lot of cases of absentee fraud that are not caught. Since the only way absentee fraud is caught is by accident or by someone tipping someone about it, it is reasonable to assume that there are hundreds (if not thousands) of such cases for every one that is caught.
> [@](#):
>
> Anyway, let’s take up residence in your imaginary world for a moment and presume this is true. Don’t you agree that it’s a huge waste of energy and expense for states to be pushing these voter ID laws that attack the smallest part of the fraud problem rather than the greatest?
No. But if you’d like, you can start a thread about absentee fraud and we’ll discuss it further.
---
### Author:  [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/456 "2012-01-04T21:19:02Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#):
>
> What documents do the poor have to show to get the “free” ID there?
>
> The US doesn’t have a centralized records system. Someone born in Alaska will always have to deal with Alaska when getting a birth certificate, for example, and they won’t be able to get an ID in South Carolina unless they buy a birth certificate from Alaska first. But, as it happens, you can’t get an [Alaska birth certificate](http://hss.state.ak.us/dph/bvs/birth/default.htm) without photo ID, which you can’t generally get without a birth certificate. It also costs $25, no exceptions.
Birth certificate if you were born before 2000 and now you get an underage version (yellow instead of blue) version of the adult ID card. All data is digital (and many municipalities are digitalizing the records (mine is and I was born in 1970).
You get a free birth certificate (even I, firmly in the upper reaches of midle class) when your baby is born. Poor people can get free copies if they need one.
Even in places were, because of terrorist attack, records were lost, you could get simple affidavits from, say, your school, college, work, parish priest of police chief to vouch for your data; and I’m talking about places with high illiteracy and dung-fueled ovens.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/457 "2012-01-04T21:42:16Z")
> [@Terr](#):
>
> You demand much higher proof that voter fraud exists (as in “actual cases”) than you want from Halter (“potential cases”). Why is that?
Just for starters, the law hasn’t taken effect yet, and, Goddess willing, never will. Hence, all cases are “potential” because, well, it hasn’t happened yet. Do try and keep up, won’t you?
“Voter fraud”, it would appear, and the cites offered bear witness, is the new “weapons of mass destruction”.
But again, you claim that these laws have been on the books for years, with no ill effects? How is it, then, that the dreadful threat of “voter fraud” hasn’t already been stopped in its tracks? If those laws didn’t ban unicorn meat, why will these do it?
And its “Holder”, by the way.
---
### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/458 "2012-01-04T21:48:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> Just for starters, the law hasn’t taken effect yet, and, Goddess willing, never will.
Similar laws have been in effect for almost a decade. Show me cases from other states.
> [@](#):
>
> But again, you claim that these laws have been on the books for years, with no ill effects? How is it, then, that the dreadful threat of “voter fraud” hasn’t already been stopped in its tracks?
The “dead voter voting” fraud has been, in those states that implemented Voter ID.
---
### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/459 "2012-01-04T22:04:05Z")
> [@Terr](#):
>
> Similar laws have been in effect for almost a decade. Show me cases from other states…
> **[96-year-old Chattanooga resident denied voting ID | Chattanooga Times Free Press](https://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2011/oct/05/marriage-certificate-required-bureaucrat-tells/)**
>
> Dorothy Cooper is 96 but she can remember only one election when she's been eligible to vote but hasn't.
**96-year-old Chattanooga resident denied voting ID**
> [@](#):
>
> …So when she learned last month at a community meeting that under a new state law she’d need a photo ID to vote next year, she talked with a volunteer about how to get to a state Driver Service Center to get her free ID. But when she got there Monday with an envelope full of documents, a clerk denied her request…
Bless her heart, she didn’t give up. Lastest word is that she will vote by absentee ballot. Oh, wait…
I win? You give up? Oh, wait, you said “cases”, didn’t you? So, one more and you slink away. That would be a shame, I was looking forward to your debunking of the _NY Times_ article. Which would be any minute now, right? Or is that “statistics”?
---
### Author:  [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)
#### Post date: [January 4, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222/460 "2012-01-04T22:43:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#):
>
> [96-year-old Chattanooga resident denied voting ID | Chattanooga Times Free Press](http://timesfreepress.com/news/2011/oct/05/marriage-certificate-required-bureaucrat-tells/)
Cool you found **one**.
> [@](#):
>
> I win? You give up?
I gave you hundreds. You gave me one.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222.md?page=22)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/sc-voter-id-law-shot-down/607222.md?page=24)