# Scalia says atheists can't study the bible. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 1, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939 "2010-05-01T02:54:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/41 "2010-05-01T22:12:07Z")
> [@Noel\_Prosequi](#): > > I recall that at Uni, the Christian clubs were all well cashed up, because Christians were big on the giving money thing. As I recall, a bunch of engineering students proposed joining, swamping the Christians with numbers in a takeover, and then blowing the funds on beer. > > I don’t know if they ever pulled it off, or were too pissed and disorganised, but the idea behind this litigation is not new. effective uses of bylaws could easily mitigate these kinds of issues, notwithstanding the more-myth-than-fact quality to these scenarios. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/42 "2010-05-01T23:12:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Every group is like that, though. If I have a stamp-collecting club, I don’t want a bunch of members who don’t like to collect stamps. It defeats the purpose of the group, and the end effect would be to remove religious groups from campus. > > If that is the goal of the policy, then at least be up front about it instead of doing this end run by complaining about the rights of the poor oppressed atheists who are discriminated against by not being allowed to join the Christian club. > > In the same vein, the campus atheist group shouldn’t have to admit Christians who will talking about turning from sin and accepting Jesus during their meetings. Did you read the facts of the case? Alito and Scalia just invented this “atheists want to join the Bible study group” thing because it sounded better than the real situation they’re deciding on. The group that was actually forbidden from joining the Christian Legal Society were gay Christians. I’m guessing that the conservatives on the court plan on ruling in favor of the CLS but they don’t want to say that colleges cannot forbid student organizations from excluding gay students. This is going to be a tricky decision for the conservatives to write. Normally, they’d fall back on the libertarian argument - it’s not the government’s place to tell any private entity whether or not it must protect gay rights. That works because usually it’s gay individuals who are trying to assert their rights within some organization. The judges can just invoke non-interference, give the organization a wink, and declare that while they’re not in favor of discriminating against gays in theory they’re not going to stop anyone from doing it in practice. But here there’s an organization that has enacted an anti-discriminatory policy of its own free will. And there’s another group that’s running afoul of this policy because it wants to discriminate against gays. So the conservatives have to throw out their usual policy of saying the government should keep its hands off and actively tell an organization that it can’t forbid discrimination even if it wants to. Now if it was just conservatives they were selling this to, it would be enough to say “but these are homosexuals we’re talking about.” That would generally be enough to convince conservatives that they don’t deserve any protection. But there’s a lot of people (who’ve watched too much Will and Grace or something) who’ve started to think that gays are actually entitled to some civil rights. So to win over these people, they’re going to bring in a less sympathetic crowd - atheists. Nobody likes them except for liberals. So the conservatives are turning this into a battle where supposedly some atheists are trying to attack some Christians. This way when they rule in favor of the Christians everyone will cheer. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/43 "2010-05-01T23:19:32Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > **Lynn** , I assume it was you that moved this thread from MPSIMS to GD. In future, would you please post a moderator note that you are doing so? > > If it was not you, please spread this request to the mod loop. Thanks. It was that dingbat **Marley**. I’ll send him around soon as we take him off the wheel. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/44 "2010-05-01T23:28:42Z")
Why would an Atheist, without malice in his heart, join a bible study group? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/45 "2010-05-01T23:32:19Z")
It’s possible it’s out of a genuine desire to learn other viewpoints. But one doesn’t have to join a group to learn how they think. There’s no other reason for an organized mass of antithetical people to join a group except for the childish purpose of breaking it up. No way their First Amendment rights, to the extent they exist, trump those of the genuine group members. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/46 "2010-05-01T23:35:29Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Point to me is why the university must abide by whatever criteria you choose for membership. If they wanted to admit only white people is that ok? > > In the end I think the university is free to make the rules as they see fit regarding which clubs they give recognition to. That does not mean you cannot form the club. Just means you cannot expect university support for it no matter what. Thats it. That is exactly it. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/47 "2010-05-01T23:38:12Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Why would an Atheist, without malice in his heart, join a bible study group? Because the Bible is a very important piece of cultural literacy. Most people know the Bible. Political decisions, like it or not, are made out of biblical justifications. Our very history as an American people is derived from the Bible. We are - or want to be - the “City on the Hill.” It behooves everyone who lives in this society to understand what is in that book. Additionally, understanding what is in the Bible gives us understanding about our neighbors, our coworkers, our friends, and our relatives - who is this country tend to be overwhelmingly Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/48 "2010-05-01T23:40:15Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > It’s possible it’s out of a genuine desire to learn other viewpoints. But one doesn’t have to join a group to learn how they think. > > There’s no other reason for an organized mass of antithetical people to join a group except for the childish purpose of breaking it up. No way their First Amendment rights, to the extent they exist, trump those of the genuine group members. I didn’t say it should be illegal or that it’s ultimately wrong, but you’re kidding yourself if you think there’s really any other motive than juvenile provocation. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/49 "2010-05-01T23:40:52Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Why would an Atheist, without malice in his heart, join a bible study group? Because he’s interested in what the Bible says about ancient cultures and what they believed? Because even though he doesn’t believe in God, he finds Jesus’s humanist principles and their explication in parables useful guides to living. Because he wants to know how the opposition thinks? I can think of a dozen reasons just off the top of my head. I’m fascinated by British coinage. I’m not British, I’m not a coin dealer, Im no longer a coin collector (my father’s and my collection was stolen in the early 1990s). Does lack of those qualifications make me ineligible to join a British Coinage Club? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/50 "2010-05-01T23:44:03Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Because the Bible is a very important piece of cultural literacy. Most people know the Bible. Political decisions, like it or not, are made out of biblical justifications. Our very history as an American people is derived from the Bible. We are - or want to be - the “City on the Hill.” It behooves everyone who lives in this society to understand what is in that book. > > Additionally, understanding what is in the Bible gives us understanding about our neighbors, our coworkers, our friends, and our relatives - who is this country tend to be overwhelmingly Christian. Please. For an Atheist, studying the Bible in group is like studying Green Eggs and Ham, if they wanted to get inside the head of a believer they’d pretend to be one and there wouldn’t have been a fuss. They WANT to be Atheists in a believers camp. ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/51 "2010-05-01T23:49:20Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Please. For an Atheist, studying the Bible in group is like studying Green Eggs and Ham, if they wanted to get inside the head of a believer they’d pretend to be one and there wouldn’t have been a fuss. They WANT to be Atheists in a believers camp. There is no fuss: > [@Little Nemo](#): > > The group that was actually forbidden from joining the Christian Legal Society were gay Christians. I’m guessing that the conservatives on the court plan on ruling in favor of the CLS but they don’t want to say that colleges cannot forbid student organizations from excluding gay students. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/52 "2010-05-01T23:49:24Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I’m fascinated by British coinage. I’m not British, I’m not a coin dealer, Im no longer a coin collector (my father’s and my collection was stolen in the early 1990s). Does lack of those qualifications make me ineligible to join a British Coinage Club? To the extent that collecting and studying coins doesn’t make you British, would you call yourself a British coin if you were enthused enough about the subject? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2010, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/53 "2010-05-01T23:51:37Z")
> [@Ace309](#): > > There is no fuss: Oh, I thought this was about Justice Scalia’s public comment. ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/54 "2010-05-02T00:46:29Z")
You seemed to be implying that the atheists referred to in Scalia’s comment during oral arguments (reproduced, e.g., [here](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/19/AR2010041900505.html)) were somehow causing “a fuss.” If I misunderstood you, I’m sorry. Those atheists are hypothetical. The actual people involved in this case are complaining about the Christian Legal Society’s statement of faith because it excludes homosexuals. This is described even in, for example, [the Christian Legal Society’s brief](http://www.abanet.org/publiced/preview/briefs/pdfs/09-10/08-1371_Petitioner.pdf). So I guess I’m not sure what atheists and what fuss you’re referring to here: > [@Sitnam](#): > > if they wanted to get inside the head of a believer they’d pretend to be one and there wouldn’t have been a fuss. They WANT to be Atheists in a believers camp. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/55 "2010-05-02T02:11:23Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Please. For an Atheist, studying the Bible in group is like studying Green Eggs and Ham, if they wanted to get inside the head of a believer they’d pretend to be one and there wouldn’t have been a fuss. They WANT to be Atheists in a believers camp. That would be dishonest and some believe, unethical. And yeah, you could form a bible study group of non-Christians - my Unitarian church has one - but they actually aren’t that easy to find. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/56 "2010-05-02T02:29:57Z")
I know of at least one christian, a person whose intelligence and character I have considerable respect for despite our differences of opinion on faith and reason, who would say that the truly christian thing (or in his words, what Jesus would do) would be to welcome as many atheists as possible to a bible study class in the hope that by studying the bible with christians they would be converted. When viewed with that opinion in mind, Scalia comments seem more thoughtless than usual. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/57 "2010-05-02T04:57:18Z")
> [@](#): > > I didn’t say it should be illegal or that it’s ultimately wrong, but you’re kidding yourself if you think there’s really any other motive than juvenile provocation. I study the bible and I’m not a believer. In fact right now I’m reading a book by [Bart Ehrman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman) - a distinguished Bible scholar who is an admitted agnostic. I’m pretty sure he hasn’t based his life’s work on juvenile provocation. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/58 "2010-05-02T13:28:17Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Dude, re-think this so you don’t sound like a Teabagger. I’m sorry, I don’t get your meaning. How do I sound like a Teabagger? ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/59 "2010-05-02T13:41:34Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yes, but the type of study is completely different. I have never seen an atheist presuppose the book is truthful. And rarely have I seen one use it for moral guidance. > > And, no, teaching only one point of view is not worship. You might argue that it’s religious, but I’m pretty sure that’s obvious to everybody. To expand a bit, to a non-religious historian of social mores, literature, etc., bible study is looking for the truth, i.e., without regard to possible supernatural inspiration, while bible study from a religious viewpoint is looking for confirmation of theological assumptions and support for beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2010, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939/60 "2010-05-02T15:20:56Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Most atheists in the US and other countries with a large percentage of Christians are quite knowledgeable about the Christian Bible. I’m sure you cannot prove this. The good news is that I can’t either. My anecdotal response, however, is that I find that the vast majority of the people I speak with _ **who are Christians** _ are not _“quite knowledgeable about the Christian Bible.”_ Among atheists the percentage is _precipitously_ lower. _ **Most** _ atheists “are quite knowledgeable about the Christian Bible”? Get real. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scalia-says-atheists-cant-study-the-bible/537939.md?page=4)