# Scam baiting- good or evil? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2008, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scam-baiting-good-or-evil/466140 "2008-10-02T07:29:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scam-baiting-good-or-evil/466140/81 "2008-10-09T16:01:28Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Most Nigerian (although they need not be from Nigeria, of course) scam formats I’ve seen seem to follow that scheme, although you’re right, there are many variations. I consider ‘charity’ scams less ‘scams’ and more ‘acts of Satan’. Another reason these mugus need to be humiliated as much as possible. Heh–we’re certainly on the same page. 🙂 (“mugus”?) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2008, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scam-baiting-good-or-evil/466140/82 "2008-10-09T18:57:12Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Heh–we’re certainly on the same page. 🙂 > > (“mugus”?) Glad to hear it! 😃 “Mugu” is a term used by scammers to refer to their victims, roughly translated to “big fool”. Baiters use it to refer to the scammer (also referred to as “lads”, as in, “the lads from Lagos”) that they’re baiting. ---
**Author:** ![jojobean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@jojobean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jojobean)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scam-baiting-good-or-evil/466140/83 "2008-10-15T14:12:48Z")
> [@Gozu](#): > > 6-It is disturbing to see how many people demonize Adamu and his brother. There is an undercurrent of racism fueling some of the hatred. > > 7-The first chat session is one of the most hilarious things I’ve ever read. Hi. My name is jojobean. I am the jackass baiter who was on the podcast. When you are hurling accusations around like this, did you ever take a moment to actually think? Because, if anyone is racist, it is you. Why do you assume that we are racist? It would really shock you to know that one of the three baiters is African American. Did you assume that we were all white because we did this? Or was it because of the way we talk? Also, I see a lot of ignorance here on victims of scams. I suggest actually educating yourself before you jump up and start commenting on stuff about which you know nothing. If you have any comments and would like to reach us, do so at [chadbait@gmail.com](mailto:chadbait@gmail.com). ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scam-baiting-good-or-evil/466140/84 "2008-10-15T15:08:37Z")
> [@jojobean](#): > > Hi. My name is jojobean. I am the jackass baiter who was on the podcast. > > When you are hurling accusations around like this, did you ever take a moment to actually think? Because, if anyone is racist, it is you. Why do you assume that we are racist? It would really shock you to know that one of the three baiters is African American. Did you assume that we were all white because we did this? Or was it because of the way we talk? > > Also, I see a lot of ignorance here on victims of scams. I suggest actually educating yourself before you jump up and start commenting on stuff about which you know nothing. > > If you have any comments and would like to reach us, do so at [chadbait@gmail.com](mailto:chadbait@gmail.com). Hello Jojobean, I was not referring to you (the baiters) but to some of the people commenting in your thread when I said there was “an _undercurrent_ of racism fueling some of the hatred”. It was a candid assessment and I think you interpreted it incorrectly. (Do you contend that there is no “undercurrent of racism” fueling **any** of the hatred?) I’ve read dozens of classic 419 bait stories (among other baiting stories), articles on victims (some people refuse to believe he was scammed, very sad), the “chop your dollar” video, etc. Of course, this was a few years back. Anyways, my last point on the list was: > [@](#): > > 7-The first chat session is one of the most hilarious things I’ve ever read. This is very high praise, why didn’t you thank me for my kind words? ☹ Welcome to the boards by the way, I hope you stick around. ---
**Author:** ![Professor\_So\_And\_So](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/87869e/32.png) [@Professor\_So\_And\_So](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Professor_So_And_So)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scam-baiting-good-or-evil/466140/85 "2008-10-15T15:50:50Z")
Jojobean linked me to this thread an hour or so ago, and although Fenris has pretty much summed up my feelings already, I’d like to take a moment to galvanize a couple facts, and add my personal opinion about how bad life in Chad probably is. We did not _send_ these guys into Chad. We simply placed a fictitious $200k in an area that _happened_ to be dangerous. We kinda just lucked out when the Sudanese rebels moved into Abeche and the area they were in became a war-zone. The rebel uprisings were only taking place for about the last 5 weeks they were stuck there. To anyone that feels bad for these scumbags, you’ll be happy to know that they are back home using the money they supposedly don’t have in attempts to defraud people via 419 scam e-mails. I hope that knowing this will put the green branch back into your heart. I actually feel a lot of emotion when I see images, video, or read stories explaining life in Abeche (or Chad in general) and Sudan. However, I reserve those feelings for people that were born into that hideous mess and have no way out, not for morons that make their way into those conditions in an attempt to rob a church of $200k that otherwise would be used for humanitarian efforts in that area. The UN (Dec 2007) estimated that there were over 200k refugees living in camps in that area. Do you honestly believe that ANY of those people would take those living conditions over having a house in Lagos and enough extra money after food/lodging to spend on internet cafe time? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scam-baiting-good-or-evil/466140/86 "2008-10-15T16:06:13Z")
Having read most of Adamu’s misadventures in Chad, I can frankly say that the onus was (and in the case of all scambaits, is) entirely on the scammer; the baiter isn’t going over there and forcing the scammer to do their bidding at gunpoint. These guys do deserve every misery they can inflict upon themselves. They have, in the past, kidnapped and murdered victims. How many victims are saved by sending lads on safaris? Who knows, but they would definitely be still trying it had they not been stranded (or ‘streded’ :D) in the middle of nowhere. In regards to the original question posed, Scambaiting = good. ---
**Author:** ![jojobean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@jojobean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jojobean)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scam-baiting-good-or-evil/466140/87 "2008-10-15T16:37:48Z")
Sorry I didn’t thank you for the praise, it was written in haste. Indeed, some of their writings were hilarious. Also, sorry I misinterpreted the comment. To be completely honest, I cannot really speak for others and their intent in their writings. I would say that there are very few, if any, racist undertones with the baiters. We bait every race. It doesn’t matter. We write to the people that write us. It’s just that simple. I have baited blacks, whites, Asians, Europeans, whatever. It is never about race. I can also say, with much certainty, that we have helped many victims in the process of baiting. I have spoken with many of them myself. I know the destruction that these people cause and will do all I can to raise awareness. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scam-baiting-good-or-evil/466140/88 "2008-10-15T16:41:41Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > People live off of food they grow themselves, build their own houses out of mud, and hope the rains don’t fail. Sounds like my Dad. He built his own house and grew food to feed his family. And he planned his family based on his abilty to take care of them. What a concept. My feeling is that if you have enough time on your hands to learn the internet scamming trade, avail yourself of the equipment necessary to carry it out, spend the time to scam people… then you have enough time to grow MORE food, build a BETTER house, and generally do something that will legally net some income. I realize it’s a hell hole. But when the outcome looks bleak, don’t make it worse by bringing more children into the world. I feel like the money I send over there makes it worse instead of better. Instead of teaching people to fish it seems like we’re teaching them to rely on others. I don’t have a huge amount of sympathy for scammers. I don’t want to see them killed but I encourage people to waste their time as a way of steering them to a legally productive life. ---
**Author:** ![Professor\_So\_And\_So](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/87869e/32.png) [@Professor\_So\_And\_So](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Professor_So_And_So)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scam-baiting-good-or-evil/466140/89 "2008-10-15T16:59:09Z")
In one of the many ethics debated that surrounded this particular bait, I posted this: > **[forum.419eater.com :: View topic - Split from Radio show thread: Ethics of...](https://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1226756#1226756)** > > A 419Eater member wrote: Great :D , but I would not want to aggravate you on purpose. Do you really need to hear the "greedy-stupid"-sentence again?? :4193: :4200: I´m glad this is over ....\ It might help people answer some questions they may still have about what effect this style of baiting actually has outside of just the torture of these guys. Some people like to think we just sent two guys into Chad, and that was the end. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2008, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scam-baiting-good-or-evil/466140/90 "2008-10-15T18:09:10Z")
Thank you, gentlemen, for trying to make the world a better place. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scam-baiting-good-or-evil/466140/91 "2008-10-16T00:17:20Z")
I’m not saying we should excuse the scammers because they come from a poor society, or that this in any way justifies their behavior. What I am saying is that their poverty may lead them to take stupid risks once they think they will get money. > [@Magiver](#): > > Sounds like my Dad. He built his own house and grew food to feed his family. And he planned his family based on his abilty to take care of them. What a concept. And I bet your dad wasn’t using simple hand tools to cultivate his fields. In rural Africa, the more kids you have the more wealth you can create. They cultivate your fields, the help in the creating and marketing of home-produced goods, they may find a “real job” and support the entire family, and they are your only hope for retirement. One of the big problems is that this part of Africa is in a time of transition. People are beginning to get access to things like schooling and medical care, which require currency. So they move into cities looking for paid jobs. But often they find neither a job nor the sustainability that they once had on their own land. \*\*My feeling is that if you have enough time on your hands to learn the internet scamming trade, avail yourself of the equipment necessary to carry it out, spend the time to scam people… then you have enough time to grow MORE food, build a BETTER house, and generally do something that will legally net some income. \*\* In urban areas, Nigeria’s unemployment rate is around 10%, but you must also note that 70% of work is in the agricultural sector. The universities keep pumping out graduates, but there are only a handful of formal jobs- jobs with paycheck- for them. Underemployment by the educated classes is chronic. The options for starting your own business are limited by lack of access to capital, as well as the fact that any successful business soon attracts the eyes of the government, who will take everything they can. In my experience, most scammers are friends with the owners of internet cafes, and surf freely during slow times. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scam-baiting-good-or-evil/466140/92 "2008-10-16T00:23:13Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Most poor people, even poor people in Africa, don’t resort to lies and stealing in order to escape poverty. Why should we excuse the minority who do? > > Part of morality says to protect the weak and helpless. Scammers don’t do that; they try to prey on them. Sometimes, what goes around comes around. > > Regards, > Shodan Ditto. You plant the seed, you reap the whirlwind (or something like that). ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scam-baiting-good-or-evil/466140/93 "2008-10-16T04:27:23Z")
> [@Gozu](#): > > I was not referring to you (the baiters) but to some of the people commenting in your thread when I said there was “an _undercurrent_ of racism fueling some of the hatred”. It was a candid assessment and I think you interpreted it incorrectly. (Do you contend that there is no “undercurrent of racism” fueling **any** of the hatred?) In my experience (admittedly a little dated) 419 Eater has a pretty solid anti-racism policy. I can’t read minds of course, but what I see is a fair of amount of taking delight in the smacking down of criminals. > [@even sven](#): > > In my experience, most scammers are friends with the owners of internet cafes, and surf freely during slow times. Please elaborate. Is the owner of the internet cafe typically the leader (or Oga?). Are most of the scammers working in a team, or alone? What’s in it for the owner? ---
**Author:** ![Gozu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gozu/32/6615_2.png) [@Gozu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gozu)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scam-baiting-good-or-evil/466140/94 "2008-10-16T05:39:52Z")
> [@Professor\_So\_And\_So](#): > > In one of the many ethics debated that surrounded this particular bait, I posted this: > > [http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1226756#1226756](http://forum.419eater.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1226756#1226756) > > It might help people answer some questions they may still have about what effect this style of baiting actually has outside of just the torture of these guys. Some people like to think we just sent two guys into Chad, and that was the end. That was a good read. Thanks for the link. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scam-baiting-good-or-evil/466140/95 "2008-10-16T07:45:50Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Please elaborate. Is the owner of the internet cafe typically the leader (or Oga?). Are most of the scammers working in a team, or alone? What’s in it for the owner? To clarify, I wasn’t friends with any scammers, but I have spent a lot of time in Internet cafes within spitting distance of Nigeria, and I have known some young women who hoped to lucky and land an overseas husband via the Internet. Internet cafes where I was were usually pretty empty of paying customers. My cybercafe operated as a side-operation of the town bank, which had to have the internet stuff anyway to do their bank stuff and figured at the least they could make some money off all the equipment they had to install. It was a pretty simple operation- four ancient computers, some hand made wooden furniture and a creaky satellite connection (cybercafes in larger cities did tend to be somewhat nicer.) An hour costs between $.40 and $1.00 an hour, depending on the time of day. The only time that the computers were full was during market day. I was the only person who regularly came in on regular days, though now and then there would be a paying customer. Since they only people who knew anything about computers in town were young men, the place was staffed by young men- our actual owner was pretty much absent and knew nothing about computers. And since there were rarely any customers, usually the young man running the place had his unemployed young man friends over hanging out (which is totally acceptable in a Cameroonian business- your workplace is seen as an extension of your home.) And they were happy to use the computers to do whatever. In my town the anti-AIDS youth club clique hung out at the cyber cafe and spent most their time pretty constructively. But I can easily see how a scammer clique could form. So it’s pretty easy to get free Internet time in that part of Africa, especially for unemployed young men. I could have probably gotten away without paying. ---
**Author:** ![jojobean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@jojobean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jojobean)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2008, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scam-baiting-good-or-evil/466140/96 "2008-10-16T14:47:45Z")
Cameroon internet cafes (from what you have described) would be very different than somewhere like Lagos, Nigeria. Lagos is the hotspot for scammers. Most scammers come out of there. There are numerous other places like Accra, Ghana; Ouagadogou, Burkina Faso; Dakar, Senegal and some other places as well. Places like these have huge numbers of internet cafes. Internet cafes are far more prevelent in these countries. In Nigeria, 419 scamming is among the top 5 revenues for their economy. This is part of why the government just winks at it. As far as how scammers work… many of them work in groups and have an “oga” or a boss. Typically it would work something like this: Scammer 1 sends out thousands of emails to “leads” they have harvested or maybe even purchased. He might get several responses, depending on how many he sends out. He may work with them through several exchanges of emails, until he weeds out the “jokers”. Scammer 1 is most likely poorly written and not too savvy. Scammer 1, after he is convinced he has a vic, he will pass him up to the next level. This is typically a barrister or a diplomat, scammer 2. This person will probably be far more eloquent in both their writing and their speech. It is not uncommon for this scammer to be located somewhere else, like Amsterdam or Britain. Depending on the type of scam, several things can happen here. Typically, a series of “fees” made by Western Union or Moneygram must be paid in order for the funds to be released. These fees are prety small, on the order of a few hundred to a couple thousand dollars. More successful, resourceful scammers may actually have the victim come to their location to meet with the diplomats. This is common in a “wash-wash” or “black-money” type scam. If victims get to this level, they are usually paying large amounts of money, $20k or more. Many scammers do work alone though. They play all the parts and are usually far less savvy or successful. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scam-baiting-good-or-evil/466140.md?page=4)