# Scarlett Johanssen as Makoto Kusanagi vs. Idris Elba as James Bond **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 16, 2016, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338 "2016-04-16T04:51:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/181 "2016-04-20T01:08:50Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Because the Asian actor is the best actor. I know it’s shocking to think that a minority actor might actually be the best solely on merit, but I assure you it can happen. There are probably many top shelf actors of the Asian persuasion. But these actors are going to have be preternaturally good to compete against three times as many white actors who are advantaged if only because they are “more relatable” to the casting Director. Or to the majority demographic, as assumed by the producers. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/182 "2016-04-20T01:16:48Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Because the Asian actor is the best actor. I know it’s shocking to think that a minority actor might actually be the best solely on merit, but I assure you it can happen. > > And did anyone even bother to google? Because I did, and according to Forbes, Jackie Chan was the 2nd highest paid actor last year. > > [2. Jackie Chan - 2016-04-18 - The World’s Highest-Paid Actors 2015](http://www.forbes.com/pictures/gkhf45fijm/2-jackie-chan/) Because if a small number of racial minorities manage to overcome all the barriers against them that’s proof that the barriers didn’t exist in the first place and everyone else who can’t manage to beat the deck stacked against them was just a loser after all. ---
**Author:** ![planetcory](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/planetcory/32/1032_2.png) [@planetcory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/planetcory)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/183 "2016-04-20T01:28:44Z")
That’s not the writer of this movie. That’s just a writer of movies. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/184 "2016-04-20T01:38:27Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Because if a small number of racial minorities manage to overcome all the barriers against them that’s proof that the barriers didn’t exist in the first place and everyone else who can’t manage to beat the deck stacked against them was just a loser after all. Asians make up a small percentage of the US population. So I don’t see their small numbers as necessarily indicative of a problem. Even if they are underrepresented, that doesn’t mean Hollywood is racist or the deck is stacked against them. 75% of Asian adults in this country are immigrants and half say they speak English very well. Those two statistics would lead me to believe that the percentage of Asians seeking work as an actor would be well below their percentage of the US population. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/185 "2016-04-20T01:39:19Z")
> [@treis](#): > > And did anyone even bother to google? Because I did, and according to Forbes, Jackie Chan was the 2nd highest paid actor last year. > > [2. Jackie Chan - 2016-04-18 - The World’s Highest-Paid Actors 2015](http://www.forbes.com/pictures/gkhf45fijm/2-jackie-chan/) I don’t think anyone’s arguing that Asian actors are under represented in _Asian_ cinema. ---
**Author:** ![Goofus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7feea3/32.png) [@Goofus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Goofus)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/186 "2016-04-20T02:00:51Z")
What’s this “digital yellowface” bull? It sounds expensive. The Mickey Rooney method is totally free! ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/187 "2016-04-20T02:02:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Asian and black and any other minority actresses will then have a chance to get their start. And then, once they get their start, some roles will crop up where they don’t need the digital race-shifting. My god. With all due respect, this is the dumbest idea I think I’ve ever heard. You think turning white is the solution to Asian and Black representation? ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/188 "2016-04-20T02:05:47Z")
> [@Goofus](#): > > What’s this “digital yellowface” bull? It sounds expensive. The Mickey Rooney method is totally free! I think the plan is to use motion capture technology to avoid any sort of connotations of racism. Unfortunately, that means in the future, the only actor will be Andy Serkis. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/189 "2016-04-20T03:34:09Z")
I think that turning whatever the race of the role is is going to be key for actors of all races. The day will come when an actor playing a role of a different race will be no more remarkable than an actor dying their hair is today. And yes, of course there will be fewer minorities cast, just by virtue of their numbers. Are you saying that “fairness” would somehow require equal numbers of all races? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/190 "2016-04-20T05:46:11Z")
I guess I’m a little unclear. Is this new version of Ghost in the Shell still set in Japan? Will all the supporting actors still be Japanese, and are they going to try to make Scarlett Johanssen look as Japanese as they can to minimize the discrepancy? I agree that is a really stupid and nonsensical decision and I might even be convinced to call it racist. Or - are they making a version of Ghost in the Shell, set in the US, with mostly white actors? That seems okay to me, this kind of stuff happens all the time with foreign movies. Is there anything inherently “Japanese” about the plot? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/191 "2016-04-20T06:05:16Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Jackie Chan was the 2nd highest paid actor last year. In Hollywood? because that’s the system we’re discussing. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/192 "2016-04-20T06:47:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think that turning whatever the race of the role is is going to be key for actors of all races. The day will come when an actor playing a role of a different race will be no more remarkable than an actor dying their hair is today I’m looking forward to seeing Joe Wong in the titular role of the Mandingo remake. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 10:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/193 "2016-04-20T10:18:26Z")
I’m not sure I can remember the last movie I saw that starred actual humans - I seem to spend all my movie money taking the kid to Disney/Pixar’s latest efforts. I’m surprised no one has mentioned the whole [controversy over Zoe Saldana playing Nina Simone](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/07/zoe-saldana-dark-make-up-nina-simone-hollywood-colour). Personally, while I like Saldana as an actress I’m definitely on the side of those who consider this a major miscasting. Saldana is good but there are many, many other black actresses who more closely resemble Simone, and the fact that Simone herself suffered from discrimination within the black community due to the color of her skin makes this decision even more inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/194 "2016-04-20T10:19:44Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think that turning whatever the race of the role is is going to be key for actors of all races. The day will come when an actor playing a role of a different race will be no more remarkable than an actor dying their hair is today. > > And yes, of course there will be fewer minorities cast, just by virtue of their numbers. Are you saying that “fairness” would somehow require equal numbers of all races? There would be fewer minorities cast than _they are now_,not just relative to whites. But you seem oddly unable to see that. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/195 "2016-04-20T12:24:15Z")
Again, it’s NOT as if Asian roles going to white actors is a new phenomenon. It’s been going on in Hollywood for a century or so. When Hollywood made _ **The Good Earth** _, most of the Chinese roles went to white actors. Detective Charlie Chan was almost always played by white actors like Warner Oland. After decades of Asian characters being played by Jimmy Stewart, John Wayne, Mickey Rooney, Tony Randall, Joel Grey, Jonathan Pryce, and now Scarlett Johansson… is a trend not pretty clear? FORGET about this particular role a second. Look at the big picture. It’s hard for ANY actor to make a living, harder still for Asian-American actors. Even the most optimistic Asian actor knows it’s going to be tough to get roles, even when casting is color blind. It’s frustrating to lose out on ANY role. But how much WORSE is it when roles that would be perfect for an Asian actor are either re-written for white actors or given to white actors who are made up to look Asian? And it’s NOT always about “bankability.” None of the white actors who were miscast in the movie \*\*\*21 \*\*\* were big stars with proven box office draw. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/196 "2016-04-20T12:30:04Z")
> [@YogSothoth](#): > > Being white is the default and nobody thinks that’s weird. That’s accepted. Their power is safe and unassailable. > > On the other hand, being part of a smaller, less pronounced culture means that any attempts to minimize that culture has greater negative effect on it, increasing the power gap between whites and minorities, makes us less diverse, and pushes it away from having equal power. > > Even if you don’t believe the above, you know that its fact that whites have had a much more diverse group of characters to play onscreen. They’ve had their turn, so why not let other races try it out too? Who are these people to get mad at the portrayal of a fictional character whose race doesn’t matter? Major Kusanagi is Japanese, the setting is Japan, and the character is based on Japanese people so her race matters. Bond is a secret agent. He’s not a secret white agent who goes to free slaves or whose origins are that he’s an escaped Congolese military personnel. His race doesn’t matter. I mean, it’s not like he’s Will Smith playing Jim West. Okay, bad example. (Idris Elba as a Viking god?) I’m curious, though: I keep hearing how, in the near future, whites are projected to no longer be the majority hereabouts; if that happens, will we _then_ say that casting a white actor in a role written for a non-white character is as shrug-worthy as when minority actors land the role of _was-a-white-character_ in an adaptation these days? Or will we say, _no, whites are still a plurality_ – or _no, because power_ – or whatever? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/197 "2016-04-20T12:33:41Z")
So long as whites have an institutional or structural advantage based on their race, this will be scrutinized. Given the tremendous advantages that simply being white has in this society, it’s astonishing how obvious this isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/198 "2016-04-20T12:53:28Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > or _no, because power_ – or whatever? Why dismiss this with a “Whatever”? It’s obviously about power. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/199 "2016-04-20T13:07:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Why dismiss this with a “Whatever”? It’s obviously about power. I’m not _dismissing_ it with a “whatever”; I’m asking because I genuinely don’t know what will be said if and when whites are no longer the majority. I know what’s said _now,_ because the bit I copy-and-pasted and replied to mentioned how being white “is the default” and talked about “minorities” – and so I got to wondering whether all of that would cease to be relevant as soon as being white _isn’t_ the default, because ‘minority’. I figure that, when that day comes, characters who’d been white will still be portrayed by actors who don’t happen to be white. I figure the reverse will also be true. I merely wondered what argument will be made _then,_ is all. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/200 "2016-04-20T13:08:44Z")
Do you think that white supremacy is a phenomenon tied solely to numbers? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338.md?page=11)