# Scarlett Johanssen as Makoto Kusanagi vs. Idris Elba as James Bond **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 16, 2016, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338 "2016-04-16T04:51:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/201 "2016-04-20T13:10:32Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > After decades of Asian characters being played by Jimmy Stewart, John Wayne, Mickey Rooney, Tony Randall, Joel Grey, Jonathan Pryce, and now Scarlett Johansson… is a trend not pretty clear? OK, John Wayne in _The Conquerer_, Mickey Rooney in _Breakfast at Tiffany’s_, _Joel Grey_ in Remo Williams, _Jonathan Price_ in Miss Saigon… When did Jimmy Stewart play an Asian character? Not that it matters to your point, many, many white actors (way too many) have done so. I just don’t recall Stewart (or, for that matter, Tony Randall) having done so. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/202 "2016-04-20T13:12:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **you with the face** : > > There would be fewer minorities cast than they are now,not just relative to whites. But you seem oddly unable to see that. Then what were you talking about when you said > [@](#): > > If a role calls for a white person and there 80 whites for every 20 minorities competing for that role, just on a numeric basis it is more likely the part will go to a white person. Because, yes, of course that’s true, and it’s nothing to complain about, because that’s perfectly fair. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/203 "2016-04-20T13:19:37Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Do you think that white supremacy is a phenomenon tied solely to numbers? I’m not sure I understand the question; different people of course mean different things by “white supremacy”. Could you elaborate a touch? That said, I’m not sure I see the relevance in any event. If, for the sake of argument, an _equal_ number of used-to-be-white characters get portrayed by non-white actors, and vice versa, is that better or worse than if no characters were switched around in adaptations? If it’s, like, 51% to 49%, could that be _better_ for striking a blow against “white supremacy” than if no roles get switched? Or what? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/204 "2016-04-20T13:19:53Z")
Part of the problem in Hollywood is the very understanding of which roles “call for a white person.” ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/205 "2016-04-20T13:22:47Z")
You guys are throwing “Asian” around here as if Chinese, Korean, Japanese, Vietnamese and so on are all the same thing. How closely must an actor’s real-life ancestry match the character he or she is playing? > [@Gyrate](#): > > I’m surprised no one has mentioned the whole controversy over Zoe Saldana playing Nina Simone. Personally, while I like Saldana as an actress I’m definitely on the side of those who consider this a major miscasting. Saldana is good but there are many, many other black actresses who more closely resemble Simone, and the fact that Simone herself suffered from discrimination within the black community due to the color of her skin makes this decision even more inappropriate. And now we have to worry about black actors not being black enough? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/206 "2016-04-20T14:54:07Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > And now we have to worry about black actors not being black enough? For godsake, they put fine-featured Afro-Latina Saldana in dark makeup and a prosthetic nose. Because this was thought more “bankable,” no doubt. > [@Ta-Nehisi Coates](#): > > There is something deeply shameful in the fact that even today a young Nina Simone would have a hard time being cast in her own biopic. (from [“Nina Simone’s Face”](http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/03/nina-simone-face/472107/)) ---
**Author:** ![Macca26](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/13edae/32.png) [@Macca26](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Macca26)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/207 "2016-04-20T15:00:05Z")
Ideally it should be the same: a Japanese actress playing a Japanese character, a Korean playing a Korean, etcetera. But because Hollywood, I’m hoping for a first good step being casting any Asians at all in roles where appropriate. After we establish that, we can move on to the next step of even better casting. In reference to an earlier post about whether Ghost in the Shell is an inherently Japanese movie: the Japanese certainly think it is. After going from powerful to demilitarized, they started becoming tech giants. They were the cutting edge of everything. So when a Japanese author creates a story about Japan clawing back to being a world power, the leader in technology, better than the USA, more glorious than they ever were before…well, yeah, that sounds like a pretty Japanese-centric story to me. In Ghost in the Shell, Japan is the only one who developed and has radiation scrubber nanomachines and they named them the “Japanese Miracle”. The story is built on top of Japanese nationalism, really. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/208 "2016-04-20T15:17:47Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > … > … I just don’t recall Stewart (or, for that matter, Tony Randall) having done so. [7 Faces of Dr Lao](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057812/). Great movie, even better book, but terrible use of asian blackfacing. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/209 "2016-04-20T15:31:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Then what were you talking about when you said > > Because, yes, of course that’s true, and it’s nothing to complain about, because that’s perfectly fair. You misunderstand; I wasn’t saying this alone is unfair. I was simply walking you through the crazy illogic of saying CGI would make it easier for minorities to get “white” roles by starting with the basic fact that numbers alone would make this unlikely. But when you factor in racial bias, “unlikely” becomes “so damn close to impossible it’s really absurd you can’t see otherwise”. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/210 "2016-04-20T15:31:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > But I’ll say this for him: he’s very clearly \*\*not \*\*saying there are no good Asian actors. He’s saying their are no _successful_ Asian actors - at least, not at the level of a Tom Hanks or a Will Smith - which seems hard to dispute. Without the chance to play a more diverse role, of course minority actors are less successful. It still doesn’t answer the question of “why” though, why should a role originating in Japan starring Japanese characters be switched over to white? > [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I’m curious, though: I keep hearing how, in the near future, whites are projected to no longer be the majority hereabouts; if that happens, will we _then_ say that casting a white actor in a role written for a non-white character is as shrug-worthy as when minority actors land the role of _was-a-white-character_ in an adaptation these days? > > Or will we say, _no, whites are still a plurality_ – or _no, because power_ – or whatever? Its not “whatever”, power and influence are a very real thing. Its just harder to quantify than raw population numbers, but even if whites are no longer the majority, there will still be a significant amount of time where they are still the most powerful racial group. Since the goal of a diverse society, casting in this case, is to try and equalize power, or share it, or get rid of systemic bigotry, then we should work towards a more equal casting that takes into account the reality of what the power dynamics are. Its harder, less black and white, and more prone to personal biases, but so what? Nobody said this would be easy. Just accept that you won’t get clear answers most of the time ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/211 "2016-04-20T17:56:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **you with the face** : > > You misunderstand; I wasn’t saying this alone is unfair. I was simply walking you through the crazy illogic of saying CGI would make it easier for minorities to get “white” roles by starting with the basic fact that numbers alone would make this unlikely. But when you factor in racial bias, “unlikely” becomes “so damn close to impossible it’s really absurd you can’t see otherwise”. The fact that there are few minorities is going to be in effect regardless of the attitudes of casting directors or of technology. Right now, minority actors face the additional hurdle that they can’t get white roles because they don’t look the part. Digital race-changing would remove that hurdle. How could this possibly _decrease_ the chances of a minority actor getting a role? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/212 "2016-04-20T18:51:37Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Digital race-changing would remove that hurdle. …well no, the point is that no it wouldn’t. Here’s a simple example. I’m Maori. I have brown skin. If someone were to suggest I use technology to whiten my skin so I could apply for white roles, I would consider punching them in the mouth. Because what you are suggesting is downright insulting. You want me to paint my face white? Seriously? How are you going to overcome that hurdle? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/213 "2016-04-20T18:56:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The fact that there are few minorities is going to be in effect regardless of the attitudes of casting directors or of technology. Right now, minority actors face the additional hurdle that they can’t get white roles because they don’t look the part. Digital race-changing would remove that hurdle. How could this possibly _decrease_ the chances of a minority actor getting a role? Because casting directors and other decision makers will be even freer to go with their personal biases—many of which are unconscious—and go ahead and hire white people all the time. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/214 "2016-04-20T19:07:48Z")
> [@Macca26](#): > > In Ghost in the Shell, Japan is the only one who developed and has radiation scrubber nanomachines and they named them the “Japanese Miracle”. The story is built on top of Japanese nationalism, really. And your point is that we have to honor the Japanese nationalism in the original script in anyway we can? You feel that is a worthy goal? ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/215 "2016-04-20T19:13:06Z")
Update: I was sure Jimmy Stewart had done a movie in which he played a Chinese character, but a sweep of the IMDB doesn’t show such a role. There are many other cases of “yellowfacing,” but I may have imagined or misremembered Jimmy Stewart doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/216 "2016-04-20T19:22:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Banquet Bear** : > > Here’s a simple example. > > I’m Maori. I have brown skin. If someone were to suggest I use technology to whiten my skin so I could apply for white roles, I would consider punching them in the mouth. Would you have the same reaction if someone asked you to dye your hair for a role? Why or why not? But actors do that all the time. What if the role has blue or green skin-- Should you be offended by that request? Zoe Saldana apparently wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/217 "2016-04-20T19:30:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Right now, minority actors face the additional hurdle that they can’t get white roles because they don’t look the part. Digital race-changing would remove that hurdle. How could this possibly _decrease_ the chances of a minority actor getting a role? If you don’t understand it after multiple explanations, I fear you will never understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/218 "2016-04-20T19:35:30Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Would you have the same reaction if someone asked you to dye your hair for a role? Why or why not? But actors do that all the time. What if the role has blue or green skin-- Should you be offended by that request? Zoe Saldana apparently wasn’t. …if I told you to wear blackface to win a role: would you wear it? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/219 "2016-04-20T19:37:14Z")
I recall a disbelief about casting Tom Cruise as Jack Reacher: > [@](#): > > But the search repeatedly stalled over finding someone with Reacher’s imposing size: 6-feet-5-inches tall, 250 pounds. “It was completely impossible to find a physical facsimile of Jack Reacher in Hollywood,” Child said. “There are none—not even remotely close. The people you think are 6-feet-five and 250 pounds are not. Most of them are at least seven or eight inches shorter than the fictional Reacher. It got to the point where people were saying, ‘What about this guy who’s nine inches shorter than Reacher? He’s better than this other guy who’s nine and a half inches shorter than Reacher.’ ” [https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/movies/the-decision-to-cast-tom-cruise-as-jack-reacher/2012/12/14/194b3b6a-3e42-11e2-ae43-cf491b837f7b\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/movies/the-decision-to-cast-tom-cruise-as-jack-reacher/2012/12/14/194b3b6a-3e42-11e2-ae43-cf491b837f7b_story.html) Is Hollywood biased against big guys? ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/220 "2016-04-20T19:38:57Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …if I told you to wear blackface to win a role: would you wear it? I’d like to say an unqualified “No, of course not”, except for Tropic Thunder. But that may just be the exception that proves the rule. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338.md?page=12)