# Scarlett Johanssen as Makoto Kusanagi vs. Idris Elba as James Bond **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 16, 2016, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338 "2016-04-16T04:51:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/221 "2016-04-20T19:47:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Banquet Bear** : > > …if I told you to wear blackface to win a role: would you wear it? That depends. Are we talking about a caricature of African-Americans as was common in minstrel shows, or a realistic depiction of the appearance of an African-American, or a depiction of a character that doesn’t look like any human but whose skin happens to be black? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/222 "2016-04-20T19:49:27Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Is Hollywood biased against big guys? I doubt it; won’t Jason Momoa be starring as Aquaman? Not to mention Dwayne Johnson, tapped to star as the new Mitch Buchannon? I mean, yeah, they’re maybe not as big as Michael Clarke Duncan when he was the Kingpin, but they’re still _big_. ---
**Author:** ![Macca26](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/13edae/32.png) [@Macca26](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Macca26)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/223 "2016-04-20T19:51:57Z")
> [@mr.jp](#): > > And your point is that we have to honor the Japanese nationalism in the original script in anyway we can? You feel that is a worthy goal? Well considering the story is built upon this base, of Japan being in equal or greater power to America, of it having solved world hunger, of it having solved radiation, and so on, it is obviously an important property to them. It embodies the early 90’s Japanese relation to technology, their way forward in growth, and their economic pride. I think it’s worthy of respect and consideration on a filmmaker’s part, that this story isn’t universal and can’t just be transplanted as-is to another country and simply make sense without a bunch of changes to tone. You couldn’t just transplant it to France for example, and still have the same message come across. And for example, mobilizing the Japanese SDF has a much different connotation in Japan than the USA mobilizing a branch of the army. So I don’t see why carefully looking at the source material and how it relates to the country it comes from isn’t a worthy goal, unless we’re implying that it’s bad for other countries to have nationalistic works. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/224 "2016-04-20T20:30:58Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Quick, name the last 3 Hollywood movies you saw staring a white person. > Now name the last three you saw staring an Asian American. > Don’t cheat and use IMDB. Does Porn count Declan ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/225 "2016-04-20T20:39:01Z")
I checked and it would appear that there has never been a woman of East Asian descent who was a Playmate of the Year. There’s been far more African American women than American Asian women as Playmates, despite that it might seem like there’d be less objection to Asian women and, in general, there’s more of a fetish for Asian women than African American. I think that the problem is that Asian women are pretty. But none of them are drop-dead gorgeous. They aren’t booty-licious (in general), they aren’t boobalicious (in general). They just don’t have what it takes to knock a guy’s eyes out of his head. And Asian men tend to be a bit small and scrawny. Women are far more likely to fawn over Idris Elba and Chris Hemsworth than Jet Li. Adding into that, that Asian Americans often try to get their kids to succeed academically and push them into serious careers, rather than supporting them in their school plays and push them to get into art and drama, there’s probably a smaller-than-proportional selection pool of talent. I would bet that, even in local theater, there’s a smaller percentile of Asian Americans than one would expect from American demographics. I don’t think that there’s any racism against Asians in film. There may have been racism against the Chinese back during Gold Rush or against the Japanese during WWII, but there isn’t anymore. Most guys would be perfectly happy to have an Asian wife, Asian son-in-law, or Asian daughter-in-law. Most women would be perfectly happy to have an Asian son-in-law or Asian daughter-in-law. (Though, I’m not sure that most women would be perfectly happy to have an Asian husband?) The problem is simply that Asians aren’t, currently, well-suited to kicking butt when it comes to physical impressiveness. And, if we’re honest, acting talent only goes so far towards getting you to the top of the heap in film. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/226 "2016-04-20T21:24:43Z")
> [@Macca26](#): > > Well considering the story is built upon this base, of Japan being in equal or greater power to America, of it having solved world hunger, of it having solved radiation, and so on, it is obviously an important property to them. It embodies the early 90’s Japanese relation to technology, their way forward in growth, and their economic pride. I think it’s worthy of respect and consideration on a filmmaker’s part, that this story isn’t universal and can’t just be transplanted as-is to another country and simply make sense without a bunch of changes to tone. You couldn’t just transplant it to France for example, and still have the same message come across. And for example, mobilizing the Japanese SDF has a much different connotation in Japan than the USA mobilizing a branch of the army. So I don’t see why carefully looking at the source material and how it relates to the country it comes from isn’t a worthy goal, unless we’re implying that it’s bad for other countries to have nationalistic works. I don’t know anything about the story, but I read somewhere that it has a post apocalyptic theme that is a callout to Hiroshima. If that’s true, it’s additional evidence that its setting in Japan is hardly incidental but rather essential to the story’s depth. ---
**Author:** ![Goofus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7feea3/32.png) [@Goofus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Goofus)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/227 "2016-04-20T21:46:15Z")
I don’t expect movie adaptations nowadays to retain much resemblance to their source material. I would just rather spend a couple of hours watching Sonoya Mizuno than Scarlett Johansson. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/228 "2016-04-20T22:15:50Z")
> [@Goofus](#): > > I don’t expect movie adaptations nowadays to retain much resemblance to their source material. I would just rather spend a couple of hours watching Sonoya Mizuno She would make a good James Bond, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2016, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/229 "2016-04-23T00:23:59Z")
> [@Unintentionally\_Blank](#): > > **cough** Gods of Egypt **cough** **cough** black Heimdall **cough** ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2016, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/230 "2016-04-23T01:15:36Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > **cough** black Heimdall **cough** **cough** grey Thor **cough** ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2016, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/231 "2016-04-23T01:37:21Z")
**cough** lemon yellow Spider-Man **cough** Sorry, I thought we were playing a game. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/232 "2016-05-02T21:36:11Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I don’t think that’s entirely fair. There were westerners in Japan at that time (the movie is largely about “westernizing” the army, no?) and the wiki article says some of the movie was based on the exploits of a French captain who fought in the Shogon-Emperor civil war. Further, sometimes dropping in a white guy is a central plot device. Like Dances with wolves, the white guy serves as an audience surrogate so an alien society can be explained to him and he can be shocked and/or amazed by it. Sure, you don’t have to do it that way but you are expecting different things from the audience if you don’t. I agree. ‘The Last Samurai’ is only loosely based on the history of the Satsuma Rebellion, but the basic idea of Western presence and influence in Japan in the early Meiji period, including both the military advisers and diplomats trying to influence the court, is relatively accurate. The traditionalists in Japan were rebelling specifically against changes in the domestic social order, but which flowed from Western presence and adoption of certain Western ways and ideas (military technology and methods not least) as a defense against further Western influence, something Japan was more successful at doing than other non-Western countries and peoples which fell under Western control in the 19th century. It would have been odd to depict that story without Western characters. There may be more room to debate why the central character would be Western, but as you say it’s much easier as a dramatic device to explain a foreign culture to an audience to whom it’s foreign through the eyes of a character to whom it’s foreign. And samurai culture is foreign to almost everyone else in the world, even to modern Japanese to some degree. Likewise Plains Indians culture. And both those movies had important characters on the ‘native’ side. I think it’s pointless quibbling to complain about that basic dramatic set up, of an outsider as a main character in a culture foreign to most of the audience. And especially if the type of outsider depicted would indeed have been encountering that culture in actual history. It’s not as if Tom Cruise was cast as American main character in ‘Apocalypto’ or something… On Manga I’m not an expert at all. But I think one could argue that the depictions of Japanese as so non-Japanese looking is in part a denial that such appearance matters. IOW the genre’s own concept of being seems somewhat against the idea that a white actress can’t depict one of its characters (or for that matter that Idris Elba can’t be Bond). ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/233 "2016-05-02T22:09:41Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I recall a disbelief about casting Tom Cruise as Jack Reacher: > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/movies/the-decision-to-cast-tom-cruise-as-jack-reacher/2012/12/14/194b3b6a-3e42-11e2-ae43-cf491b837f7b\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/movies/the-decision-to-cast-tom-cruise-as-jack-reacher/2012/12/14/194b3b6a-3e42-11e2-ae43-cf491b837f7b_story.html) > > Is Hollywood biased against big guys? In a way, yeah. The ideal lead is pictured as not being excessively big. In the same way Cruise, a slightly below average height fellow, needs to pretend to be taller than he really is in movies. Much like in the case of non-white actors, unusually tall (or short) actors are bound to be cast in roles specifically made for a tall character, and be ignored for the neutral roles that require no specific size. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2016, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/234 "2016-05-02T23:44:08Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I recall a disbelief about casting Tom Cruise as Jack Reacher: > > > [@](#): > > > > But the search repeatedly stalled over finding someone with Reacher’s imposing size: 6-feet-5-inches tall, 250 pounds. “It was completely impossible to find a physical facsimile of Jack Reacher in Hollywood,” Child said. “There are none—not even remotely close. The people you think are 6-feet-five and 250 pounds are not. Most of them are at least seven or eight inches shorter than the fictional Reacher. It got to the point where people were saying, ‘What about this guy who’s nine inches shorter than Reacher? He’s better than this other guy who’s nine and a half inches shorter than Reacher.’ ” > > [https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/movies/the-decision-to-cast-tom-cruise-as-jack-reacher/2012/12/14/194b3b6a-3e42-11e2-ae43-cf491b837f7b\_story.html](https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/movies/the-decision-to-cast-tom-cruise-as-jack-reacher/2012/12/14/194b3b6a-3e42-11e2-ae43-cf491b837f7b_story.html) > > Is Hollywood biased against big guys? Short answer, no (heh heh). Actors who are 6’4" or taller: Ben Affleck Harry Anderson James Avery Adam Baldwin James Brolin Chevy Chase Sacha Baron Cohen John Corbett Snoop Dogg Vincent D’Onofrio Fred Dryer Michael Clarke Duncan Clint Eastwood Jonathan Frakes Brad Garrett Jeff Goldblum Armie Hammer David Hasselhoff Yaphet Kotto John Larroquette Christopher Lee John Lithgow Dolph Lundgren Matthew Modine Michael Moriarty David Morse Liam Neeson Craig T. Nelson Tyler Perry Randy Quaid Michael Rapaport Tim Robbins RuPaul Bob Saget Jason Segel Tom Selleck Stellan Skarsgard Daniel Stern Donald Sutherland (but Kiefer Sutherland is seven inches shorter than his father) Fred Dalton Thompson Vince Vaughn Max von Sydow ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/235 "2016-05-03T00:10:43Z")
Where did you get that list? I don’t see Dwayne Johnson or Joe Manganiello on it. ---
**Author:** ![lilihob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a9adbd/32.png) [@lilihob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lilihob)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/236 "2016-05-03T08:41:50Z")
Joe magliano is 6 ft 5, but Dwayne Johnson is only 6 ft 3. (Only 6ft 3. Ha, never thought I’d write those words .) ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/237 "2016-05-03T09:29:09Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Quick, name the last 3 Hollywood movies you saw staring a white person. > Now name the last three you saw staring an Asian American. > > Don’t cheat and use IMDB. If you asked people to name the last 20 Hollywood movies starring a white person and 1 starring an Asian-American you might have a point, but there’s no worthwhile conclusion to be drawn from the fact that people know more movie stars from ~70% of the population than they do from ~5% of the population. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/238 "2016-05-03T11:27:20Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > If you asked people to name the last 20 Hollywood movies starring a white person and 1 starring an Asian-American you might have a point, but there’s no worthwhile conclusion to be drawn from the fact that people know more movie stars from ~70% of the population than they do from ~5% of the population. Is the point not the same? It’s difficult to come up with movies staring Asian Americans. Movies starring white folk are everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/239 "2016-05-03T11:48:06Z")
> [@Corry\_El](#): > > I agree. ‘The Last Samurai’ is only loosely based on the history of the Satsuma Rebellion, but the basic idea of Western presence and influence in Japan in the early Meiji period, including both the military advisers and diplomats trying to influence the court, is relatively accurate. The traditionalists in Japan were rebelling specifically against changes in the domestic social order, but which flowed from Western presence and adoption of certain Western ways and ideas (military technology and methods not least) as a defense against further Western influence, something Japan was more successful at doing than other non-Western countries and peoples which fell under Western control in the 19th century. It would have been odd to depict that story without Western characters. While the topic was certainly about Western culture, the war was mostly Japanese vs. Japanese. I wouldn’t say that including foreigners would be a natural inclusion in any depiction. I’m sure that the Japanese have a wide range of films and TV shows about the period and I’d be pretty certain that most of them include no white faces. > [@](#): > > And samurai culture is foreign to almost everyone else in the world, even to modern Japanese to some degree. Given that most soap operas in the country seem to be set in the Edo period, a healthy percentage of their films are set in either Edo or Warring States, and there’s a healthy smattering of manga about samurai, I wouldn’t say that samurai culture is particularly foreign to most Japanese. Women and the elderly are probably encountering depictions on a regular basis. Granted, those depictions might not be terribly accurate, but it’s probably much more so than our depictions of “cowboys”. I think the main difference between the dramas and reality, in Japan, would be a general bowdlerization of the periods being shown. Whereas cowboys were just farmhands, not anything like what appear in Westerns. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2016, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/240 "2016-05-03T12:57:21Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Is the point not the same? It’s difficult to come up with movies staring Asian Americans. Movies starring white folk are everywhere. Asians apparently make up around 3.6% of the US population. Given that, why would you expect Asian Americans to feature in many movies? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338.md?page=13)