# Scarlett Johanssen as Makoto Kusanagi vs. Idris Elba as James Bond **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 16, 2016, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338 "2016-04-16T04:51:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/41 "2016-04-16T16:24:04Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Anime almost never draws Japanese people differently from anyone else. When it does, it usually just a few stereotypes. > > Just google anime and look at Google images. Nearly all the characters you see will be Japanese, but not look it. Yes, even the blonde girls with blue eyes. > > I’m not sure how I feel about this particular show, since I’ve not seen it. But I do know that any claim about anime characters “not looking Japanese” is silly, because Japanese is the default in anime. If a blonde girl with blue eyes can be Japanese why can’t Scarlett Johansson? ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/42 "2016-04-16T16:36:45Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > If a blonde girl with blue eyes can be Japanese why can’t Scarlett Johansson? Very good question. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/43 "2016-04-16T16:45:15Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > If a blonde girl with blue eyes can be Japanese why can’t Scarlett Johansson? No reason. But with all the out of work Asian actresses why give the role to a white chick? Why go out of your way to not cast an Asian actress? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/44 "2016-04-16T16:47:08Z")
Because people rather watch Scarlett Johansson. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/45 "2016-04-16T16:47:54Z")
As the link Mr Dribble gave in post 24 discusses, just because the animation doesn’t look like a Japanese person to us, that doesn’t mean the character isn’t meant to be Japanese. The example it gives is Marge Simpson. We all “know” she’s white despite being yellow skinned with blue hair. If someone were making a live action Simpsons, wouldn’t you raise an eyebrow if they cast her as some other race? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/46 "2016-04-16T16:53:37Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > As the link Mr Dribble gave in post 24 discusses, just because the animation doesn’t look like a Japanese person to us, that doesn’t mean the character isn’t meant to be Japanese. The example it gives is Marge Simpson. We all “know” she’s white despite being yellow skinned with blue hair. If someone were making a live action Simpsons, wouldn’t you raise an eyebrow if they cast her as some other race? And just because Scarlett Johansson doesn’t look like a japanese person doesn’t mean the character isn’t meant to be japanese either. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/47 "2016-04-16T17:00:53Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > And just because Scarlett Johansson doesn’t look like a japanese person doesn’t mean the character isn’t meant to be japanese either. She isn’t a cartoon. We know what a real life Asian person looks like. It is very safe to say that by casting her we are not expected to think the character in the movie is meant to be Japanese. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/48 "2016-04-16T17:03:46Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > So the former casting has occurred in the Ghost in the Shell movie, which retains all names from the very Japanese manga and anime. The defense of some people at this casting reminded others of the time there were Internet suggestions of Idris Elba for the next Bond. Several, including Roger Moore, commented he wasn’t right for the part, for… physical reasons. > > Is there any difference between the two situations in your mindsets? Well, one big difference that I don’t think anyone has mentioned yet is that Scarlett Johansson has actually been cast as Motoko Kusanagi while Idris Elba has not been cast as James Bond. Even if one believes that there would be no meaningful difference between these two casting choices, only the former has in fact happened. So in reality, not the realm of things some people on the Internet think would be cool, Johansson comes out ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_John\_Marcej](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Richard\_John\_Marcej](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_John_Marcej)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/49 "2016-04-16T17:09:59Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Because people rather watch Scarlett Johansson. Or more to the point, money. The answer to every question, ever asked, since the history of time, always in some ways, is **money** My guess is that the studio that has the rights to _“Ghost In The Shell”_ knows that it has a big audience, just not a **HUGE** audience. They’re going to want to go with a bankable star. You know, money. Scarlett has appeared in some big money makers recently, not necessarily because of her, but all bean counters need are a name and a profit that goes with it. And folks, we’re going to see this happening more and more in the future. Yes, perhaps 70, 80 years ago when only white actors were given roles it was done, in part, for racist reasons, but mostly it was done … for money, but now, with film budgets growing and theaters making less profits, with the internet piracy hurting some studios and theater ticket prices sky rocking, studios are going to be even MORE conservative with their money and while an Asian actress or Japanese actress may have been more suitable, if the studio doesn’t see money-in-the-bank with her name, as opposed to Scarlets’, they’ll go with the money making star **all the time.** ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/50 "2016-04-16T17:24:59Z")
Right. They want the bankable star. And there are no bankable Asian-American actors. So they cast a white person. And so there continue to be no bankable Asian-American actors. You see the issue here, yes? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/51 "2016-04-16T17:25:07Z")
The fact that she got the part because she is a more bankable star is kind of a “no shit, sherlock” kind of comment but I have my doubts that money pressure now is much different than other times in movie making history. Some things are more expensive but a bunch of stuff is cheaper and easier like editing, special effects, and distribution. ---
**Author:** ![planetcory](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/planetcory/32/1032_2.png) [@planetcory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/planetcory)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/52 "2016-04-16T17:37:41Z")
If [this doesn’t help explain](http://timemachineyeah.tumblr.com/post/58648290519/this-is-a-jar-full-of-major-characters) the difference, I don’t know. Scarlett Johansson didn’t become a bankable star overnight. She was given opportunity after opportunity. Just like most bankable stars. Those opportunities aren’t afforded as liberally to people of color. There’s nothing a Sam Worthington or Taylor Kitsch or Olivia Wilde brings to the table that’s particularly undeniable. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_John\_Marcej](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Richard\_John\_Marcej](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_John_Marcej)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/53 "2016-04-16T17:39:41Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > The fact that she got the part because she is a more bankable star is kind of a “no shit, sherlock” kind of comment but I have my doubts that money pressure now is much different than other times in movie making history. Some things are more expensive but a bunch of stuff is cheaper and easier like editing, special effects, and distribution. Really? You must live in some wonderful land then. Businesses, ESPECIALLY businesses that have share holders have one goal. **PROFIT** They don’t give a shit if it’s some beloved anime franchise. They don’t care what the races or sexes or nationality the characters are. All they want are assurances that whatever is made makes a hell of a profit. And even if you were right, about some costs being less expensive than they were, what, studios are going to say “Hey, these editing tools are less expensive, lets pass the savings off to the consumer. Hell, we’ll lower the ticket prices!” And if some costs are down, have you sat through end credits recently? Do you see **ALL** the names listed? Do you think they came cheap? Compare that to end credits for films made 10, 20, 30 years ago. Less people involved. Less salaries to pay. So even if you believe that some movie making costs are less expensive, it’s more than made up with the large amounts of people needed to make them. > [@Miller](#): > > Right. They want the bankable star. And there are no bankable Asian-American actors. So they cast a white person. And so there continue to be no bankable Asian-American actors. > > You see the issue here, yes? They cast a bankable star who’s films have made a ton of money. White? Asian? Black? The banks that fund these studios, the studios themselves see one color. It’s GREEN. So yes, I see the issue, all you have to do is get a HUGE (recently) bankable star that banks & studios think will earn them huge profits and they’ll go out of their way to hire them. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/54 "2016-04-16T17:41:07Z")
There’s two sides to the bankability coin, though. I’ll bet that any one of those out-of-work Asian actresses would have been willing to work for much cheaper than Ms. Johanssen. The studio for _Ghost in the Shell_ wouldn’t have been willing to pay her going rate unless they were confident that the movie would make enough to justify it. On the other hand, in a movie with a lot less budget, you’re going to want an actress who works for cheap. And ideally, you’d want one whose market value was driven down for reasons other than her acting ability. So those out-of-work Asian actresses, who have just as much skill as their Caucasian counterparts but who are less marketable for big-budget pictures, should actually have an advantage in casting for lower-budget movies. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/55 "2016-04-16T17:45:23Z")
Personally, I don’t think Idris Elba looks like enough like Bond to play him. Chiwetel Ejiofor, on the other hand, I can TOTALLY see as Bond. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/56 "2016-04-16T17:53:21Z")
> [@Richard\_John\_Marcej](#): > > Really? You must live in some wonderful land then. > Businesses, ESPECIALLY businesses that have share holders have one goal. > **PROFIT** > > They don’t give a shit if it’s some beloved anime franchise. They don’t care what the races or sexes or nationality the characters are. All they want are assurances that whatever is made makes a hell of a profit. > > And even if you were right, about some costs being less expensive than they were, what, studios are going to say “Hey, these editing tools are less expensive, lets pass the savings off to the consumer. Hell, we’ll lower the ticket prices!” > > And if some costs are down, have you sat through end credits recently? Do you see **ALL** the names listed? Do you think they came cheap? Compare that to end credits for films made 10, 20, 30 years ago. Less people involved. Less salaries to pay. So even if you believe that some movie making costs are less expensive, it’s more than made up with the large amounts of people needed to make them. Golly gee you’re right! I forgot about how in the good old days you could make a movie with just a couple of guys who worked for free and investors who didn’t care about making money. You’ve really opened my eyes! ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/57 "2016-04-16T18:17:09Z")
I don’t believe that I still have the Ghost in the Shell manga (which is the origin of the movie and series, not a follow-on), but I do have an art book by the writer and that, luckily, has a shot of one of the pages from Ghost in the Shell featuring some Russians (aka, white people): [![](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/1ci8v7eppwzle4k/whitey.jpg?dl=0) ](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/1ci8v7eppwzle4k/whitey.jpg?dl=0) Kusanagi is Japanese, not white. White people are drawn differently than standard Japanese characters. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/58 "2016-04-16T18:46:35Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Well, one big difference that I don’t think anyone has mentioned yet is that Scarlett Johansson has actually been cast as Motoko Kusanagi while Idris Elba has not been cast as James Bond. For what it’s worth, I see where the role of Kusanagi was apparently going to go to either Johansson or Margot Robbie. I know. No, I _know_. But it brings to mind how the upcoming SUICIDE SQUAD adaptation of course has Will Smith as the previously-white Deadshot; does that miss it closer enough? ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/59 "2016-04-16T19:16:32Z")
As a long-time GITS fan, I never doubted that Kusanagi was intended to be Japanese, despite the vagaries of the art style. This confuses me a little bit because I keep hearing about how Hollywood is crafting its movies to pander to SE Asian audiences. This is why we get bullshit like “Transformers 4” and “The Martian” that have to randomly throw in hand-jobs for the Chinese even when it contributes nothing to the plot. If Hollywood is so concerned about marketing its movies to Asian audiences, wouldn’t it make more sense to actually cast an Asian woman in an Asian role? And at the risk of throwing more fuel on the fire: I really hate seeing white people show up in movies where they make no sense. This is a big part of the reason I despised “The Last Samurai” so much. If you want to make a samurai movie, just hire a bunch of Japanese actors. You don’t have to torture the script just so you can wedge a white guy in there where he logically and historically does not belong. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/60 "2016-04-16T19:25:05Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > . > What wonderful reading comprehension you have… > Aah, yes, with those wonderfully Japanese-named characters “Ciel Phantomhive” and “Sebastian Michaelis”, set in the well-known Japanese metropolis of “London” - why yes, of course you _must_ assume everyone there is Japanese :rolleyes: Dude, there’s like a billion unnamed characters in any anime of your choice. An awful lot of them are set in entirely fictional non-Urth times and places. Assuming anybody not explicitly said to be something else is Japanese is just dumb. Why not just admit you bullshat yourself into a corner here? If we narrowly focus on something like Samurai Champloo, you have a limited point. For all the million-billion fantasy and science fiction stories not set in any real time or place, not so much. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338.md?page=4)