# Scarlett Johanssen as Makoto Kusanagi vs. Idris Elba as James Bond **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 16, 2016, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338 "2016-04-16T04:51:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/61 "2016-04-16T20:01:51Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > This is why we get bullshit like “Transformers 4” and “The Martian” that have to randomly throw in hand-jobs for the Chinese even when it contributes nothing to the plot. \Well, technically, the Chinese subplot in “The Martian” was in the book long before Hollywood got a hold of it, and it made a reasonable amount of sense in the context of the story (in the novel, if not the movie). \ As for GITS, it could be done well either way. But they do appear to be shoehorning an actress of their choice into the part for some of the worst reasons instead of good reasons - like talent or a different take on the story or any of several other valid reasons. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/62 "2016-04-16T20:05:47Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > As a long-time GITS fan, I never doubted that Kusanagi was intended to be Japanese, despite the vagaries of the art style. > > This confuses me a little bit because I keep hearing about how Hollywood is crafting its movies to pander to SE Asian audiences. This is why we get bullshit like “Transformers 4” and “The Martian” that have to randomly throw in hand-jobs for the Chinese even when it contributes nothing to the plot. If Hollywood is so concerned about marketing its movies to Asian audiences, wouldn’t it make more sense to actually cast an Asian woman in an Asian role? Hollywood is very specifically concerned with getting past the very strict Chinese censoring boards. The Japanese don’t outright refuse to show movies like the Chinese do. That’s as far as the pandering goes, if they can’t show the movie in China they lose out on hundreds of millions in profits. It’s why movies like Fury Road are struggling to get permission to get a sequel made while others have to throw in hand jobs that contribute nothing to the plot. Other countries have no problems enjoying American movies just as they are. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/63 "2016-04-16T20:09:37Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > And at the risk of throwing more fuel on the fire: I really hate seeing white people show up in movies where they make no sense. This is a big part of the reason I despised “The Last Samurai” so much. If you want to make a samurai movie, just hire a bunch of Japanese actors. You don’t have to torture the script just so you can wedge a white guy in there where he logically and historically does not belong. I don’t think that’s entirely fair. There were westerners in Japan at that time (the movie is largely about “westernizing” the army, no?) and the wiki article says some of the movie was based on the exploits of a French captain who fought in the Shogon-Emperor civil war. Further, sometimes dropping in a white guy is a central plot device. Like Dances with wolves, the white guy serves as an audience surrogate so an alien society can be explained to him and he can be shocked and/or amazed by it. Sure, you don’t have to do it that way but you are expecting different things from the audience if you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Goofus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7feea3/32.png) [@Goofus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Goofus)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/64 "2016-04-16T20:10:27Z")
ScarJo should play the role like Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany’s. That way everyone can be happy. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/65 "2016-04-16T20:21:26Z")
Is the film taking place in Japan, or is the story being transplanted to America? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2016, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/66 "2016-04-16T23:07:50Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > If Hollywood is so concerned about marketing its movies to Asian audiences, wouldn’t it make more sense to actually cast an Asian woman in an Asian role? At least in Japan, boinking a tall, blonde woman with big tits is far and away more impressive than doing it with a black haired, East Asian woman. And, the (male) head of the household is the one who decides what movies to watch. And if you’re Chinese and the woman is an actual Japanese actress, I suspect that it becomes even less thrilling. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/67 "2016-04-17T01:06:52Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I don’t think that’s entirely fair. There were westerners in Japan at that time (the movie is largely about “westernizing” the army, no?) and the wiki article says some of the movie was based on the exploits of a French captain who fought in the Shogon-Emperor civil war. Further, sometimes dropping in a white guy is a central plot device. Like Dances with wolves, the white guy serves as an audience surrogate so an alien society can be explained to him and he can be shocked and/or amazed by it. Sure, you don’t have to do it that way but you are expecting different things from the audience if you don’t. And in any case, fairly adventurous individuals can and do find themselves fighting in armies belonging to other countries from time to time, like John Paul Jones, a Scotsman who gained fame serving in the US Navy before becoming a Russian Admiral, or Rick Rescorla, a Cornish man who served in the British Army, the Northern Rhodesia Police, and the US Army. ---
**Author:** ![mage-girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/cc9497/32.png) [@mage-girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mage-girl)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/68 "2016-04-17T02:39:01Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Well, one big difference that I don’t think anyone has mentioned yet is that Scarlett Johansson has actually been cast as Motoko Kusanagi while Idris Elba has not been cast as James Bond. Even if one believes that there would be no meaningful difference between these two casting choices, only the former has in fact happened. So in reality, not the realm of things some people on the Internet think would be cool, Johansson comes out ahead. Aside - Reading your post made me recall something. Isn’t Idris Elba the lead in the movie adaptation of Stephen King’s Gunslinger series? Would he even have time to do a James Bond movie, if he’s committed himself to a series (I’m assuming) of future movies? All speculation of course. If they really want Elba for Bond, they’ll find a way. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/69 "2016-04-17T03:27:10Z")
The ‘Idris Elba for Bond’ thing has been going on for a long time. He was only recently cast as Roland. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/70 "2016-04-17T05:53:51Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Assuming anybody not explicitly said to be something else is Japanese is just dumb. Have you read none of the links here? Yes, assume if it’s a Japanese person making the anime that the default is a Japanese person. Because all the racial clues people think they see (pale skin, blonde hair) are [not _actually_ racial clues in anime conventions](https://web.archive.org/web/20110717060459/http://www.matt-thorn.com/mangagaku/faceoftheother.html). > [@](#): > > Why not just admit you bullshat yourself into a corner here? How about “No”? > [@](#): > > If we narrowly focus on something like Samurai Champloo, you have a limited point. For all the million-billion fantasy and science fiction stories not set in any real time or place, not so much. Well, obviously, if it’s some fictional universe, they’re not strictly “Japanese”. But then they’re not “European” or “American”, either. But what they _are_, is “not foreign” to Japanese people - they are not marked as “Other”, but as “Us” - Japanese people looking at stock anime characters do not perceive them as different, any more than, as pointed out in [one discussion](https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2010/08/30/guest-post-why-do-the-japanese-draw-themselves-as-white/), they need their stickmen to have slanted eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/71 "2016-04-17T06:23:28Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Have you read none of the links here? Yes, assume if it’s a Japanese person making the anime that the default is a Japanese person. Because all the racial clues people think they see (pale skin, blonde hair) are [not _actually_ racial clues in anime conventions](https://web.archive.org/web/20110717060459/http://www.matt-thorn.com/mangagaku/faceoftheother.html). Realistically, Japanese manga artists and animators learned to draw from Disney and European sources. Back when they drew in their own style, the people looked Japanese: > **[Japanese Woodblock Print Search - Ukiyo-e Search](https://ukiyo-e.org/)** > > Japanese Woodblock print search engine. Searches thousands of Ukiyo-e, Meiji, Shin Hanga, and Sosaku Hanga prints. So in practical terms, they are drawing caucasian people, they just don’t realize it until they have to try and draw an actual white person, and go through some contortions to figure out how to do that. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyClueless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@MostlyClueless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyClueless)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/72 "2016-04-17T06:52:31Z")
In canon, Motoko has a top-of-the-line cyborg body. However, to not attract attention, the outside of that body is made to look like a regular, run-of-the-mill cyborg. (The manga explicitly states that otherwise, she’d be at risk of being abducted and stripped for parts.) This also ties in thematically. A big deal is made of how to retain a sense of self when nearly every aspect of your physical being is artificial. To illustrate: [Motoko travels around the city, and keeps running into exact duplicates of herself] So, in-story; she looks like a very common kind of cyborg, marketed to the average japanese person who could afford to be one. Also, I completely agree with the [previously cited](http://timemachineyeah.tumblr.com/post/58648290519/this-is-a-jar-full-of-major-characters) raisins example. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/73 "2016-04-17T07:54:37Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Realistically, Japanese manga artists and animators learned to draw from Disney and European sources. This is mostly true - there were some pre-War local antecedents as well, but manga as we know it is a post-War, American animation-inspired artform. > [@](#): > > Back when they drew in their own style, the people looked Japanese: Actually, if we’re being pedantic, they looked Chinese, since it was Chinese woodblock printing that inspired the Japanese, including stylistically. > [@](#): > > So in practical terms, they are drawing caucasian people, they just don’t realize it until they have to try and draw an actual white person, and go through some contortions to figure out how to do that. This is true, but that last bit highlights what I’ve been saying all along - anime artists draw Japanese people with stylistic clues that _we_ read as “Western”,\* but they don’t\*. It doesn’t matter that they derive from Western prototypes, right now they default to using that same style for Japanese people too. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/74 "2016-04-17T07:55:48Z")
> [@MostlyClueless](#): > > Also, I completely agree with the [previously cited](http://timemachineyeah.tumblr.com/post/58648290519/this-is-a-jar-full-of-major-characters) raisins example. It is a brilliant analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 7:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/75 "2016-04-17T07:58:44Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > This is true, but that last bit highlights what I’ve been saying all along - anime artists draw Japanese people with stylistic clues that _we_ read as “Western”,\* but they don’t\*. It doesn’t matter that they derive from Western prototypes, right now they default to using that same style for Japanese people too. Also true. Not everything is simple. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/76 "2016-04-17T08:16:12Z")
75 posts and no one has mentioned that quite possibly she - and the other examples noted - were the best of the applicants for the job? ---
**Author:** ![kiz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7feea3/32.png) [@kiz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kiz)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/77 "2016-04-17T09:20:34Z")
> [@Richard\_John\_Marcej](#): > > And folks, we’re going to see this happening more and more in the future. Yes, perhaps 70, 80 years ago when only white actors were given roles it was done, in part, for racist reasons, but mostly it was done … for money, but now, with film budgets growing and theaters making less profits, with the internet piracy hurting some studios and theater ticket prices sky rocking, studios are going to be even MORE conservative with their money and while an Asian actress or Japanese actress may have been more suitable, if the studio doesn’t see money-in-the-bank with her name, as opposed to Scarlets’, they’ll go with the money making star **all the time.** This. I’m not surprised somebody like Johanssen was cast in a movie like this. Exchange her with another bankable female actor and I’d say the same thing. I agree, in a perfect world the role would’ve gone to an Asian female actor. It would’ve made a great breakout role. But the studio can’t take a chance on that because it needs a financial return on this project, so they’re going to go with the bankable star rather than the unknown. I have Facebook friends who hand-wring over this phenomenon all the time. They understand the reason but they, for some reason, still love to bang the race/Hollywood pulpit. Everybody gets it and everyone agrees with them but it’s not going to change the status quo at this very moment. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/78 "2016-04-17T10:06:21Z")
> [@kiz](#): > > This. > > I’m not surprised somebody like Johanssen was cast in a movie like this. Exchange her with another bankable female actor and I’d say the same thing. > > I agree, in a perfect world the role would’ve gone to an Asian female actor. It would’ve made a great breakout role. But the studio can’t take a chance on that because it needs a financial return on this project, so they’re going to go with the bankable star rather than the unknown. > > I have Facebook friends who hand-wring over this phenomenon all the time. They understand the reason but they, for some reason, still love to bang the race/Hollywood pulpit. Everybody gets it and everyone agrees with them but it’s not going to change the status quo at this very moment. And it won’t last, because it’s becoming a bigger deal all the time. Using money as an excuse for racism is still racism, and we’re only getting more sensitive to this stuff rather than less. We already saw what happened at the Oscars, and it’s only going to get worse. If they don’t start taking chances, they will run out of bankable stars in the first place. Oh, and would people please stop acting like doing something racist for money isn’t racism? Doing it for money is even worse, since it means you must be consciously aware of what you are doing. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/79 "2016-04-17T10:40:08Z")
> [@kiz](#): > > I’m not surprised somebody like Johanssen was cast in a movie like this. Exchange her with another bankable female actor and I’d say the same thing. You seem to be missing the reason \*why \*she is bankable. She is bankable because, as an unknown, she was given roles in movies with a good chance of success. Movies based on pre-existing comic books or best selling novels. That got her exposure. It made her famous. It made her bankable. And this project has a good chance of success. The studio could do with this character what they did with Johanson in Ghost World or Lost in Translation. They could cast a relatively unknown, up-and-coming Asian actress in a “safe” movie based on a best-selling,famous source. But they didn’t. they cast an established White actor instead. And as a result the chance of an Asian actress breaking out and becoming bankable due to this project the way that Johanson did from Ghost World or Lost in Translation, is zero. Everybody knows why this decision was made. You haven’t got some deep insight when you point out that the decision was based on money. What you are not explaining however is why Johanson was cast in Ghost World and Lost in Translation instead of a bankable star? Why did the “studio” take a risk and cast an unknown Johansson and not Live Tyler or Nicole Kidman a some other bankable actress of the day? That is the problem. Studios only ever promote White actresses to be the new It Girl. And as result only White actresses ever become bankable. And that is then used as the excuse when the studio refuses to cast minority actresses in minority roles. Obviously every bankable actress was once not bankable. The question being asked here isn’t just :Why not cast an Asian actress in an Asian role" it is "Why are Asian actresses never allowed to \*have \*a potential breakout role? Why do they all have to become established abroad, or in US TV or in independent movies before a US studio will cast them in a safe movie? Why isn’t some Asian actress being given the opportunity in this project that Johanssen got in Ghost World or Lost in Translation. That’s the real question. Simply claiming that it’s being done for monetary reasons doesn’t address the issue because we know that Johansson herself was given equivalent roles when she wasn’t bankable. So why is it only minority roles where actresses on safe projects have to be bankable? ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/80 "2016-04-17T10:59:57Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > As an aside, in the upcoming DOCTOR STRANGE movie, Doc’s mentor – who, in the comics, is an Asian male – will apparently be played by Tilda Swinton. But in that same movie, Baron Mordo – a European nobleman who happens to be _white_ in the comics – is being played by Chiwetel Ejiofor. > > So is that film a win or a loss or a break-even proposition for the underrepresented? (Does it depend on whether Swinton or Ejiofor ranks higher in the credits?) It’s a loss. A major minority hero has been Whitewashed and White villain has been made into yet another a Black gangster. Hollywood has never had a problem casting minorities as villains. That’s been a long running problem in its own right. In no sense is it a positive thing that minority hero has been whitewashed while a white villain has been recast as black. > [@CarnalK](#): > > Only Horse Whisperer belongs on that list [Ghost World, Horse Whisperer, Virgin Suicides]. It was the only hit, only one with a big name star and the only one based on a big name book. Firstly, Virgin Suicides should have been Lost in Translation, which starred Bill Murray and was . Secondly, the cast of Ghost World included Thora Birch, who was big name at the time and Steve Buscemi. It was based on a commercially successful, cult comic, directly comparable to GitS. > [@](#): > > And saying this new movie is a sure fire hit is silly. No it’s not. To the extent that anything is sure fire, this is. Large lead in, oodles of internet chatter. Nothing in Hollywood has ever been truly sure fire. but this project has as good a chance as any other non-sequel else ever produced. > [@](#): > > That said, they really should have cast an Asian actress. It’s just jarring for no good reason. Same reason I don’t want a black James Bond. Why is a Black Bond in 2016 jarring? What aspect of his character makes a Black man less plausible? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338.md?page=5)