# Scarlett Johanssen as Makoto Kusanagi vs. Idris Elba as James Bond **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 16, 2016, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338 "2016-04-16T04:51:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/81 "2016-04-17T11:19:52Z")
I can imagine that the filmmakers initially sought funding with Asian actors potentially in the cast. They would list a lot of names for each character as part of the pitch to investors. And then, at each rejection, they had to use fewer Asian actors and more known Caucasian actors, until they had to bite the bullet and set the lead as white. I can totally believe that they tried their best to stay true, and yet reluctantly had to concede. I don’t know if they’re in any position to ever admit to that, though, so we may never know the truth. So right now they have to justify their cast using vague bullshit, circling round the truth with wishy-washy transparent lies. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/82 "2016-04-17T11:51:02Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > I can imagine that the filmmakers initially sought funding with Asian actors potentially in the cast. They would list a lot of names for each character as part of the pitch to investors. And then, at each rejection, they had to use fewer Asian actors and more known Caucasian actors, until they had to bite the bullet and set the lead as white. I can totally believe that they tried their best to stay true, and yet reluctantly had to concede. > > I don’t know if they’re in any position to ever admit to that, though, so we may never know the truth. So right now they have to justify their cast using vague bullshit, circling round the truth with wishy-washy transparent lies. I can absolutely see this being the case. That doesn’t make it any better. Its not directly comparable but with Jackie Robinson day having just past recently in baseball I keep thinking about how arguments used to be made that no one wanted to see baseball with black players. That the negro leagues existed and that it was just a business decision to not integrate. Of course back then there were many more people who were ok with being blatant racists too, so it’s not a perfect comparison, but it’s maybe a good yardstick to see how far we have actually come. As a society we have learned to hide our racism better, but it’s still the same stuff. Also, as to the general bankability of Scarlett Johansson, every movie where she was the star vehicle and not a supporting player had been a flop. If it was all about the money they should have picked someone who has actually proven they can bring people to theaters. As for the argument that maybe these white actors were just the best actors for the job, that argument hinges on a misunderstanding of how the casting process works. Scarlett Johansson hasn’t actually auditioned for a role since before the first Avengers movie was made. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/83 "2016-04-17T12:10:49Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > To piggyback off Miller and others: > > Is there a good reason not to give the roll to an Asian actor? There are few enough rolls out there for Asian actors without white folk taking Asian parts. If you give a roll to an actor, you feed him for a day. If you give a role to an actor, you feed him for life. > [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > Personally, I don’t think Idris Elba looks like enough like Bond to play him. Chiwetel Ejiofor, on the other hand, I can TOTALLY see as Bond. Ian Fleming explicitly stated that Bond looked like Hoagy Carmichael. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/84 "2016-04-17T12:11:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There’s two sides to the bankability coin, though. Im sure no one cares about my money, but I’m not going to pay to see a non-asian actress play Motoko Kusanagi. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/85 "2016-04-17T12:13:28Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > Im sure no one cares about my money, but I’m not going to pay to see a non-asian actress play Motoko Kusanagi. Would it be enough to cast an Asian actress, or would they still be accused of being racist for casting a Chinese-American and not a Japanese-American actress? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/86 "2016-04-17T12:27:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > This is true, but that last bit highlights what I’ve been saying all along - anime artists draw Japanese people with stylistic clues that _we_ read as “Western”,\* but they don’t\*. It doesn’t matter that they derive from Western prototypes, right now they default to using that same style for Japanese people too. Again for the benefit of the casual viewer, it’d be really sweet if you actually said what any of those “stylistic cues” are rather than just preened some more. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/87 "2016-04-17T12:35:03Z")
On Elba (potentially) as Bond, I think that a lot of confusion comes from a difference between English and American culture. In every culture in the world, there is some subculture which is privileged, and some subculture which is unprivileged. And it is an inherent part of Bond’s character that he comes from the privileged subculture. But which subculture is the privileged one varies from culture to culture. In the US, the division is largely racial: A white person is more privileged than a black person. But in the UK, race is much less relevant: A person of any race can be from any social class. A descendant of African nobility will be regarded as much more privileged than a descendant of Welsh commoners. So there isn’t actually any real disconnect in James Bond being black, but a disconnect will nonetheless be perceived by American audiences. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/88 "2016-04-17T12:40:14Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Also, as to the general bankability of Scarlett Johansson, every movie where she was the star vehicle and not a supporting player had been a flop. If it was all about the money they should have picked someone who has actually proven they can bring people to theaters. Does LUCY not count? $463 million on a $40 million budget? ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/89 "2016-04-17T12:51:55Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Does LUCY not count? $463 million on a $40 million budget? And weirdly still considered a flop. I don’t make the rules. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/90 "2016-04-17T12:52:04Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Would it be enough to cast an Asian actress, or would they still be accused of being racist for casting a Chinese-American and not a Japanese-American actress? Don’t put words in my mouth. I didn’t call anyone racist. Any actress that looks like Motoko would be OK. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/91 "2016-04-17T12:55:39Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > If you give a roll to an actor, you feed him for a day. > If you give a role to an actor, you feed him for life. Can I blame the fact that I mostly post from my phone? :o ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/92 "2016-04-17T12:58:49Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > On Elba (potentially) as Bond, I think that a lot of confusion comes from a difference between English and American culture. In every culture in the world, there is some subculture which is privileged, and some subculture which is unprivileged. And it is an inherent part of Bond’s character that he comes from the privileged subculture. But which subculture is the privileged one varies from culture to culture. In the US, the division is largely racial: A white person is more privileged than a black person. But in the UK, race is much less relevant: A person of any race can be from any social class. A descendant of African nobility will be regarded as much more privileged than a descendant of Welsh commoners. So there isn’t actually any real disconnect in James Bond being black, but a disconnect will nonetheless be perceived by American audiences. That’s a very interesting point. I was watching \*the Kingsmen \*a while ago, and I started griping a bit how the only two non-white characters in the movie were villains. My wife, a bigger anglophile than I am, pointed to the movie’s working-class protagonist, played by the very white Taron Egerton, and said: “You don’t get it. To the British, \*he’s \*black.” ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/93 "2016-04-17T15:01:51Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > 75 posts and no one has mentioned that quite possibly she - and the other examples noted - were the best of the applicants for the job? Doubt it, mainly to do with Hollywood accounting. As mentioned earlier, to make a certain amount of money, requires a certain amount of money invested and that requires a name, no more , no less. Regardless of a movie flopping or going over the top, its prime purpose was successful, the IRS has no idea how much and where money went. I’d also question whether the studio concidered a white actress, culturally neutral for global film release, casting a gaijin with big tits, instead of a chinese actress in a japanese role, or vice versa in a chinese role. Then again, why was this an American movie to be made, it would seem that with Space Battleship Yamato and Capt Harlock, already been made into a live action movies, why did a Japanese studio not pick this one up. Declan ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/94 "2016-04-17T15:03:15Z")
I know little about Japanese anime and care less. And if the casting of Scarlett Johansson were just an isolated incident, I wouldn’t care much about that either. But this still happens regularly. Look at Jeff Ma and the Chinese-American students from MIT who cleaned up in Vegas after discovering a formula for winning at blackjack. Great story that should have made a great movie. But when Hollywood made “21,” the cast was almost all white! When Asian actors can’t even get hired for explicitly Asian roles, something is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/95 "2016-04-17T15:31:55Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > And weirdly still considered a flop. I don’t make the rules. Who the heck do you think considers it a flop? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/96 "2016-04-17T16:02:29Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > White villain has been made into yet another a Black gangster. It[doesn’t really look](http://www.blastr.com/2015-12-30/chiwetel-ejiofor-reveals-if-baron-mordo-will-be-hero-or-villain-doctor-strange) like Mordo is going to be a straight-up villain in the movie…they might be going the Sinestro-in-_Green Lantern_ slow burn route. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/97 "2016-04-17T16:08:06Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Again for the benefit of the casual viewer, it’d be really sweet if you actually said what any of those “stylistic cues” are rather than just preened some more. :rolleyes: I _already_ mentioned them. Try reading my last reply to you again, only s-l-o-w-e-r this time. In case you need some help, that would be post #70… I’ll be over here, preening.🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/98 "2016-04-17T17:21:31Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Again for the benefit of the casual viewer, it’d be really sweet if you actually said what any of those “stylistic cues” are rather than just preened some more. I’m really baffled by your hostility to **MrDibble** ’s point, which seems both obvious and non-controversial. What part of it exactly are you objecting to? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/99 "2016-04-17T19:14:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m really baffled by your hostility to **MrDibble** ’s point, which seems both obvious and non-controversial. What part of it exactly are you objecting to? It is less that I am hostile to his point than I am to his curious inability to actually explain his point in his own words. If I wanted the results of a google search on the topic, I would simply have run a google search on the topic. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/100 "2016-04-17T19:42:19Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > It is less that I am hostile to his point than I am to his curious inability to actually explain his point in his own words. If I wanted the results of a google search on the topic, I would simply have run a google search on the topic. I’m not much of an anime fan and I didn’t even click on any of **MrDibble** ’s links, but I don’t find his point difficult to understand. I am having trouble understanding what your objection to it is and why you seem so angry about it. If you want someone to give you a specific example of a trait that may seem “white” to Western viewers but not to Japanese viewers then an obvious one is skin color. We’ve had threads before where people asked why anime characters have “white” complexions. But actual Japanese people tend to have fairly light skin, a pale complexion has been considered attractive in Japan for hundreds if not thousands of years, and traditional Japanese art often depicts Japanese people as having very light, even literally white (paper-white) skin. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338.md?page=6)