# Scarlett Johanssen as Makoto Kusanagi vs. Idris Elba as James Bond **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 16, 2016, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338 "2016-04-16T04:51:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/161 "2016-04-19T21:19:51Z")
"Hilary Swank has a vagina, and she won an Oscar pretending she has a dick. That’s what actors do. They pretend. " -Ari Gold, Entourage Although, admittedly, Ari Gold isn’t exactly the poster child for political correctness. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/162 "2016-04-19T21:23:49Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If anything, it might end up being a boon for minority actors. If they can make “digital yellowface” work, then they can make “digital whiteface” work, too, and so you could have minority actors playing roles of any race. The most practical problem with this is that there would be little economic pressure to “whiteface” minority actors, but the same can not be said for “minority-facing” white actors. So you end up making Hollywood even whiter than it is now. It boils down to this question: Why turn a well-known black actor into white-looking one when you could just hire a well-known white actor and save the expense of CGI? But in a racially biased world, its radically different when you change things around. You could turn a well-known white actor into a faux minority and still cash in on a brand name that comes from white privilege. If the CGI technique is effective enough (and not as ridiculously distracting as that hotass [yellowface](http://io9.gizmodo.com/5955964/did-cloud-atlas-yellowface-problem-help-to-sink-it-at-the-box-office) mess they used in **Cloud Atlas** ) then there would be little reason to cast any minorities in roles that they could do well in. Just use the same old Matt Damon/Tom Hanks types in everything; with CGI, now they even play MLK and Malcolm X and it’s all good! Because why trust a black actor to attract white audiences when we always put our confidence in a white one who is just pretending to be black, amirite? Movies would become less diverse, not more. Do you not see a problem with this, or are you honestly indifferent to whether racial groups are well-represented in the media? ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/163 "2016-04-19T21:25:09Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > "Hilary Swank has a vagina, and she won an Oscar pretending she has a dick. That’s what actors do. They pretend. " > -Ari Gold, Entourage > Although, admittedly, Ari Gold isn’t exactly the poster child for political correctness. Quick, name the last 3 Hollywood movies you saw staring a white person. Now name the last three you saw staring an Asian American. Don’t cheat and use IMDB. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/164 "2016-04-19T21:53:47Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > No reason. But with all the out of work Asian actresses why give the role to a white chick? Why go out of your way to not cast an Asian actress? Why do you think the studio went out of their way to not cast an Asian actress? ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/165 "2016-04-19T22:00:16Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Why do you think the studio went out of their way to not cast an Asian actress? Because they didn’t cast an Asian actress when they could have? Did I use the idiom incorrectly? I’m a native English speaker, but hey we all make mistakes. Maybe I don’t understand your question. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/166 "2016-04-19T22:09:18Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Because they didn’t cast an Asian actress when they could have? Did I use the idiom incorrectly? I’m a native English speaker, but hey we all make mistakes. I don’t know. What are you trying to say? Saying that they went out of their way to cast a white actress is saying that they exerted extra effort to cast a white actress over an asian one. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/167 "2016-04-19T22:19:07Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Quick, name the last 3 Hollywood movies you saw staring a white person. > Now name the last three you saw staring an Asian American. > Don’t cheat and use IMDB. X-Men Apocalypse - Olivia Munn as Psylocke um…I think Kill Bill 1 and 2 were on USA last night. Is that two movies? Does ‘Aloha’ count? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/168 "2016-04-19T22:20:52Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > You’re right. I personally think that the new Luke Cage TV show that they are going to be bringing to Netflix should star Chris Pine as Luke Cage, but digitally make him look black. Actors like Mike Colter should really have no trouble getting cast in Spike Lee movies or going to Africa and working in their media there. Why isn’t netflix trying to reinterpret this for a new audience by casting the white guy as the lead like they should? Do you think they have a moral obligation to cast a black actor as Luke Cage. Because that is what people seem to be arguing here. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/169 "2016-04-19T22:34:01Z")
The writer of the GitS movie posted a YouTube video that one (admittedly tabloid) website characterized as saying, there just aren’t any good Asian actors. If I could find it, I’d link it, but… ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/170 "2016-04-19T22:39:14Z")
Its almost always fine if you want to remake a traditionally white character into a minority, its almost always not fine the other way around. Whitewashing is a real thing. As the dominant culture/race, remaking white things with minorities isn’t an attack on white culture. Its expanding the power and influence of traditionally marginalized minorities. You can remake a hundred white movies with minorities and it won’t harm whites. Being white is the default and nobody thinks that’s weird. That’s accepted. Their power is safe and unassailable. On the other hand, being part of a smaller, less pronounced culture means that any attempts to minimize that culture has greater negative effect on it, increasing the power gap between whites and minorities, makes us less diverse, and pushes it away from having equal power. Even if you don’t believe the above, you know that its fact that whites have had a much more diverse group of characters to play onscreen. They’ve had their turn, so why not let other races try it out too? Who are these people to get mad at the portrayal of a fictional character whose race doesn’t matter? Major Kusanagi is Japanese, the setting is Japan, and the character is based on Japanese people so her race matters. Bond is a secret agent. He’s not a secret white agent who goes to free slaves or whose origins are that he’s an escaped Congolese military personnel. His race doesn’t matter. So why not have him be black or Asian or Hispanic? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/171 "2016-04-19T22:40:46Z")
Found it. [Judge for yourself.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=747cvo8Lkjw) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/172 "2016-04-19T23:29:08Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Found it. [Judge for yourself.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=747cvo8Lkjw) Weird video. He keeps saying, “Don’t blame Hollywood!” And then describing exactly how this is Hollywood’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/173 "2016-04-19T23:32:36Z")
Maybe he’s saying it’s the public’s fault for creating “market realities”, and the studios bear no blame for merely kowtowing to them? ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2016, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/174 "2016-04-19T23:55:43Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Found it. [Judge for yourself.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=747cvo8Lkjw) They hired that dingbat to write the film? Maybe casting won’t be the only problem. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/175 "2016-04-20T00:03:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **you with the face** : > > The most practical problem with this is that there would be little economic pressure to “whiteface” minority actors, but the same can not be said for “minority-facing” white actors. So you end up making Hollywood even whiter than it is now. OK, so eventually, Ms. Johanssen (like every other big-name Hollywood actress) will be past her prime. Hollywood is going to have to find new young stars to bring in after her. Let’s take it as a given that the Powers that Be in Hollywood are racist jerks, and so they’re going to want all of their roles to be white. But if digital race-shifting is cheap and effective, they’re going to be able to just as easily cast anyone in those roles. Asian and black and any other minority actresses will then have a chance to get their start. And then, once they get their start, some roles will crop up where they don’t need the digital race-shifting. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/176 "2016-04-20T00:42:00Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Maybe he’s saying it’s the public’s fault for creating “market realities”, and the studios bear no blame for merely kowtowing to them? Maybe? I mean, I guess you could say it’s not the studio’s fault that there’s only about fifteen “A” list actors out there - that’s pretty clearly about shifting market expectations, not any particular action by the studios. But their reaction to the idea that the public doesn’t really care about “A” list actors is to double down on the few A listers still around - that’s entirely on the studios, not anyone else. That market model is clearly failing, and they’re clueless about what to do about it. That sounds like its entirely their fault. The overall gist of his piece seemed to be, “Don’t blame the studios; they’re too cowardly to take chances!” And you know, I think that’s something I _will_ blame the studios for, the gutless sacks. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/177 "2016-04-20T00:43:12Z")
But I’ll say this for him: he’s very clearly \*\*not \*\*saying there are no good Asian actors. He’s saying their are no _successful_ Asian actors - at least, not at the level of a Tom Hanks or a Will Smith - which seems hard to dispute. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/178 "2016-04-20T00:45:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, so eventually, Ms. Johanssen (like every other big-name Hollywood actress) will be past her prime. Hollywood is going to have to find new young stars to bring in after her. Let’s take it as a given that the Powers that Be in Hollywood are racist jerks, and so they’re going to want all of their roles to be white. But if digital race-shifting is cheap and effective, they’re going to be able to just as easily cast anyone in those roles. Asian and black and any other minority actresses will then have a chance to get their start. And then, once they get their start, some roles will crop up where they don’t need the digital race-shifting. But it requires a galling level of naiveity to think this would somehow increase the number of roles given to minorities. If a role calls for a white person and there 80 whites for every 20 minorities competing for that role, just on a numeric basis it is more likely the part will go to a white person. This is true even if low-cost CGI exists that would somehow make the actor’s race moot, and it certainly holds true if CGI comes at cost. If a role calls for a minority and there’s 20 minortities for every 80 whites competing for that role, once again, whites will be more likely to get the part. This doesn’t change even with race bending CGI making everything “colorblind”, and even if this is somehow happening in a dream world where racism and bias doesn’t exist. In a world where racism and bias _does_ exist, it’s even more apparent this would not help anyone except whites. Why would any Hollywood exec hire an Asian ever, if it was socially acceptable to cast white people for white roles and white people for Asian roles? Sure, an Asian actor could try to audition to be the next Batman or Jason Bourne, but regardless of CGI, they don’t have the star power of a Ben Affleck because the deck is stacked against them. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/179 "2016-04-20T00:55:06Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Why would any Hollywood exec hire an Asian ever, if it was socially acceptable to cast white people for white roles and white people for Asian roles? Because the Asian actor is the best actor. I know it’s shocking to think that a minority actor might actually be the best solely on merit, but I assure you it can happen. And did anyone even bother to google? Because I did, and according to Forbes, Jackie Chan was the 2nd highest paid actor last year. > **[2. Jackie Chan - 2016-04-18 - The World’s Highest-Paid Actors 2015](https://www.forbes.com/pictures/gkhf45fijm/2-jackie-chan/)** > > $50MillionChina's biggest movie star got a boost from back-end participation on "Dragon Blade," which featured him in a starring role alongside Adrien Brody and John Cusack (the film grossed $120 million in China), and enough brand extensions to make... ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2016, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338/180 "2016-04-20T01:00:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Let’s take it as a given that the Powers that Be in Hollywood are racist jerks, and so they’re going to want all of their roles to be white. But if digital race-shifting is cheap and effective, they’re going to be able to just as easily cast anyone in those roles. Asian and black and any other minority actresses will then have a chance to get their start. Why would racist jerks want to give minority actors a chance? If they’re such racist jerks they’re going to prefer white actors, and unless this digital race-shifting can be done for free then hiring a white actor to play a white character is going to be cheaper too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johanssen-as-makoto-kusanagi-vs-idris-elba-as-james-bond/752338.md?page=10)