# Scarlett Johansson Drops Out Of Transgender Role In 'Rub And Tug' **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 13, 2018, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867 "2018-07-13T22:26:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/41 "2018-07-14T17:17:40Z")
> [@DavidwithanR](#): > > I think there’s a certain amount of straw-man going on there. Carrying this to its logical conclusion is not necessarily right. I think it is a nonsensical position in the first place so I guess any “logical” conclusion would be equally so. There is a question here though, is there a certain type of role that must be taken by an equivalent type of actor? if so, which type and why? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/42 "2018-07-14T17:32:37Z")
There are some roles that must be taken by an equivalent type of actor, certainly. For instance, a role for a person of a particular race, for whom the race of the character is important to who and what he is, must be played by an actor of that race. This does not mean that all roles are race-locked, because not all characters have a definite race (if, for instance, they originated from a book that didn’t describe the characters in that level of detail, such as Ford Prefect), and in many cases, even if the character does have a particular race, their race is unimportant (such as the mom in _A Wrinkle in Time_). But some roles are race-locked, because the character’s race is important, like historical figures involved in the Civil Rights struggle. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/43 "2018-07-14T17:46:06Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Plus, as pointed out [in this video](https://youtu.be/eriNjdkg6ZQ?t=15m14s), the guy had a girlfriend who was an extremely important part of his life. You need a bankable star? Hire her as the girlfriend. Pull in some cameos to play the masseuses. The bankable star doesn’t have to be the lead! You can’t do that because then: Actresses only get hired to play “the girlfriend.” You have sexism and age discrimination as clearly now that she is over 30, Scarlett is not being offered any leading roles. “Bankable” actresses in cameos? More sexism and signs of the age discrimination. What do you propose - that 27 year-old Jennifer Lawrence after 1 flop is now reduced to playing a masseuse cameo in a niche picture? Maybe they can get Meryl Streep, too. Jeez, even Meryl can’t get a real role? Maybe Viola Davis can play a maid. ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/44 "2018-07-14T17:49:42Z")
> [@Intergalactic\_Gladiator](#): > > FYI, what Dante “Tex” Gill looked like: > > [http://old.post-gazette.com/obituaries/20030109gillp4.asp](http://old.post-gazette.com/obituaries/20030109gillp4.asp) Maybe Melissa McCarthy turned it down? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/45 "2018-07-14T17:57:11Z")
> [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](#): > > Maybe Melissa McCarthy turned it down? I was thinking Oliver Platt. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/46 "2018-07-14T18:28:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > There are some roles that must be taken by an equivalent type of actor, certainly. For instance, a role for a person of a particular race, for whom the race of the character is important to who and what he is, must be played by an actor of that race. I think that’s fair, it has to be “near enough” to allow that willing suspension of disbelief. Though of course even that can be fraught with issues. Zoe Saldana, a black woman, was subject to complaints that she wasn’t “black enough” to play Nina Simone. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/47 "2018-07-14T19:18:08Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > Case in point, The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. One of the characters is a Native American from the Lakota tribe. However, it’s played by the blonde haired, blue eyed Jane Krakowski. They gave her a very brief backstory to explain why she looks like a white person instead of a Native American, but people weren’t happy about it, saying that the character should have been played by an actual Native American. However, most of the articles I’ve read written by (or an interview with) a Native American sure makes it sound like they aren’t taking up an issue with it. There’s one article out there, that I can’t find right now, from a higher up in tribe/area where the character is supposed to come from specifically saying they like it because it’s bringing more attention to their tribe than they’ve had in a long time. Being a Native American isn’t about how you look, it’s about tribal affiliation. There are enrolled members of tribal bands who look fully “white” or “black” but the looks aren’t what make them a member of the tribe. Being a member of the tribe is what makes them a member of the tribe. Most Americans don’t really know shit about the Native Americans or indiginous Canadians anyway, and many of them make up fake stories about their great grandmother being “a full-blooded Cherokee.” They only ever say that about Cherokees and Apaches because it’s a famous name that has all kinds of shit named after it like helicopters and jeeps. Nobody ever says “my great grandmother was Lenape.” ---
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/48 "2018-07-14T19:33:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Gay versus straight is a different issue, because people don’t look gay or straight. I have gay friends who don’t “look gay”, and I also have gay friends who absolutely do “look gay”. There is no possible question that SOME people really do look a certain way. > [@Chronos](#): > > A gay person can play a straight person, or vice-versa, and pull it off just fine. Still true despite my other point, at least most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/49 "2018-07-14T19:51:59Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Lamoral** : > > Nobody ever says “my great grandmother was Lenape.” I have a great[sup]4[/sup]-grandmother who was Shawnee. If I were inclined, I could dig out the full family tree to her (and to all of my other ancestors to that depth). As for why it’s most common for people to claim Cherokee ancestry, it’s mostly because Cherokee ancestry is fairly common. They’re a fairly large tribe, they’ve had a disproportionate amount of pressure to mix with outsiders, and they’re relatively permissive for how much ancestry is necessary to be counted in the tribal rolls. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/50 "2018-07-14T21:12:08Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > Being a Native American isn’t about how you look, it’s about tribal affiliation. There are enrolled members of tribal bands who look fully “white” or “black” but the looks aren’t what make them a member of the tribe. Being a member of the tribe is what makes them a member of the tribe. Most Americans don’t really know shit about the Native Americans or indiginous Canadians anyway, and many of them make up fake stories about their great grandmother being “a full-blooded Cherokee.” They only ever say that about Cherokees and Apaches because it’s a famous name that has all kinds of shit named after it like helicopters and jeeps. Nobody ever says “my great grandmother was Lenape.” None of that matters because the whole premise/joke about that character was that she had lightened her skin, died her hair and wore color contacts to erase her background. If anyone had really complained about it, they’d have been stupid. Having a white, blond actress playing the part was the back story joke. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2018, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/51 "2018-07-14T22:34:32Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > …There is a question here though, is there a certain type of role that must be taken by an equivalent type of actor? if so, which type and why? It’s a perfectly reasonable question, to which there will never be a consensus answer. Practically speaking, the answer will be ‘YES, roles are restricted in all cases in which protests take place that have a large-enough effect on the movie-going public to alarm filmmakers.’ My personal feeling is that it’s good to discuss the unconscious ways in which bias plays out–and that one of those ways is in the casting of entertainment projects. Having the discussion was fair, though the malice directed at Johansson strikes me as unhelpful. Many trans people appear to be happy that Johansson dropped out. If a major motion picture about Gill will now fail to be made, will they be as happy? Perhaps. Would a movie starring Johansson (or some star with equivalent drawing power) have brought new levels of understanding and acceptance of trans people to the masses? Is foregoing that possibility a good thing? Absent a window into a parallel world in which the movie was made and widely viewed, we can’t know. But in human affairs, the squeaky wheel does indeed get the grease. For good or ill. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/52 "2018-07-15T00:36:11Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > They convinced Johansson that accepting this role would do more harm than good. Well that and she probably got tired of the harassment. Don’t get me wrong – I’m not saying that people weren’t right to feel that this part should be played by a trans actor, or possibly even a cis male. But some of the backlash against her was really over the top. I mean, it was downright hateful, and I wouldn’t be surprised if she was getting threats. That’s just not cool. People were acting like this was Mickey Rooney in _Breakfast at Tiffanys_. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/53 "2018-07-15T01:48:13Z")
Either trans-people should be regarded as being functionally the same as people who define their identity by the physical characteristics that they were born with, or they shouldn’t. I happen to believe that they should, with the possible exception of certain situations like competitive physical sports. In other regards there is absolutely no reason why the physical characteristics, or sexual identity, of an actress portraying a transgender individual in a movie, should enter into the equation. The kind of people who would object to Johansson’s performance in the movie are only further dividing people, rather than encouraging co-operation…do we really need any _more_ of that at the present time? ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/54 "2018-07-15T02:28:35Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > It’s strange that both lead actors in the recent gay romance _Call Me by Your Name_ are straight, yet nobody is making a fuss that gay actors should have been used. On the contrary, the film won a number of awards. It’ll happen. Just wait. The issue wasnt that SJ didn’t look the part. It was that “She was taking a job away from a Trans actor” Some of the more idiotic things i heard was “If they want an actor with star power and a familiar name, why don’t they cast Chaz Bono.” ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/55 "2018-07-15T02:33:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I would take people upholding the principle of acting freedom a lot more seriously if I hadn’t seen a lot of those same people complaining when the role of a white male character is recast and given to a minority or female actor. > > _“Oh no, Idris Elba can’t play Heimdall. Heimdall’s supposed to be white. Halle Berry can’t play Catwoman. Catwoman’s supposed to be white. Katee Sackhoff can’t play Starbuck, Starbuck’s supposed to be a man. Michael Clarke Duncan can’t play Kingpin. Kingpin’s supposed to be white. Michael Jordan can’t play the Human Torch The Human Torch is supposed to be white. Morgan Freedman can’t play Red. Red’s supposed to be white. Judi Dench can’t play M. M’s supposed to be a man. Billy Dee Williams can’t play Harvey Dent. Harvey Dent’s supposed to be white. Women can’t play the Ghostbusters. The Ghostbusters are supposed to be men. It’s all a bunch of political correctness gone mad.”_ > > But take a minority character and cast a non-minority actor in the role? > > _“What’s the matter? Haven’t you ever heard of acting? You just want reverse discrimination.”_ Heimdell isn’t Asgardian and is portrayed very much as ‘other’ Morgan Freeman is Morgan fucking Freeman. I don’t think the Ghostbusters or Human Torch examples are proving your point. I’m sure there will always be some berk complaining, but I never heard any carping about Billy Dee or Dench. I heard MUCH MORE about the blonde Bond. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/56 "2018-07-15T03:07:16Z")
Oh, certainly any malice directed at Johansson herself is misguided. If you’re an actor and you’re offered a part, you take it. Now, maybe Johansson has sufficient clout in Hollywood that she can afford to turn down roles, but she’s one of very few for which that’s true, and I’m sure she still remembers all too well the days before she broke through, when it wasn’t true. No, if there’s any scorn to be had here, it’s for the casting director. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/57 "2018-07-15T09:17:30Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Nationality seems utterly irrelevant. Ethnicity is not, however. Mandela was a particular ethnicity (Xhosa with a large Khoisan component) not found outside South Africa. The statement made by casting West African-ancestral (with likely a non-zero European component) American and British Blacks is “all Blacks are interchangeable.” Goes right in there with general ignorance of Africa, its [true size](http://kai.sub.blue/images/true_size_of_africa_v3-da3dd38e.jpg) and [diversity](http://www.afrikanheritage.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/faces-of-africa.jpg). It’s a similar statement to [that made](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoirs_of_a_Geisha_(film)#Casting_controversy) when Chinese actors are cast to play Japanese - “all you yellow people look alike to us” Those may not be the \*intended \*statements , but those are definitely the statements \*heard \*by many PoC. And all that leaves aside the fact that Mandela is a national _icon_, which is totally fucking relevant. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/58 "2018-07-15T09:19:08Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Oh, certainly any malice directed at Johansson herself is misguided. If you’re an actor and you’re offered a part, you take it. Now, maybe Johansson has sufficient clout in Hollywood that she can afford to turn down roles, but she’s one of very few for which that’s true, and I’m sure she still remembers all too well the days before she broke through, when it wasn’t true. No, if there’s any scorn to be had here, it’s for the casting director. Does the fact that _her own production company_ was going to be doing the movie change that for you? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/59 "2018-07-15T09:31:10Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Ethnicity is not, however. Mandela was a particular ethnicity (Xhosa with a large Khoisan component) not found outside South Africa. > > The statement made by casting West African-ancestral (with likely a non-zero European component) American and British Blacks is “all Blacks are interchangeable.” Goes right in there with general ignorance of Africa, its [true size](http://kai.sub.blue/images/true_size_of_africa_v3-da3dd38e.jpg) and [diversity](http://www.afrikanheritage.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/faces-of-africa.jpg). > It’s a similar statement to [that made](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memoirs_of_a_Geisha_(film)#Casting_controversy) when Chinese actors are cast to play Japanese - “all you yellow people look alike to us” > > Those may not be the \*intended \*statements , but those are definitely the statements \*heard \*by many PoC. > > And all that leaves aside the fact that Mandela is a national _icon_, which is totally fucking relevant. But by this logic, we would never have seen Mandy Patinkin play a Spaniard - and that’s a world I don’t want to live in. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2018, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/60 "2018-07-15T10:21:01Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But by this logic, we would never have seen Mandy Patinkin play a Spaniard - and that’s a world I don’t want to live in. Less humorously, that logic would mean we’d never have a movie about Nicoleño. General rule: If your push for increased representation would result in less representation, you might want to rethink things a little bit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867.md?page=4)