# Scarlett Johansson Drops Out Of Transgender Role In 'Rub And Tug' **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 13, 2018, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867 "2018-07-13T22:26:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/121 "2018-07-16T22:42:33Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It is not surprising to me that you don’t get it. You are a white person. You are likely quite unfamilar with colorism in the black community and the stigma that a woman like Nina Simone faced for her physical appearance. > > To select a light-skinned woman to portray Nina Simone not just glosses over that struggle, it shits all over. It perpetuated the stupid message that Nina’s very existence belied: that a dark-skinned woman who does not meet the Eurocentic ideal can be still be a star. On the other hand, this seems to be you missing what **Guin** said. She specifically said she DOES understand why color is an issue. She said she didn’t understand why using prosthetics to change facial features is an issue. I mean, I can guess based on what I already know about the color issue, but I’d rather defer to someone with more personal knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/122 "2018-07-16T23:29:07Z")
Nina faced stigma for not meeting the Eurocentric ideal. Which relates not just to skin color, but hair texture and _nose shape_. She had the hallmark features of person with recent west/central African ancestry and likely grew up hearing really nasty remarks about it from both blacks and whites. So slapping on a nose prosthetic is just as offensive as slapping on dark make-up. It’s messaging to anyone who is sensitive to the subject that both black noses and black skin are so odd that we need to get an make-up artist to simulate them rather than select an actress who comes by them naturally. [Michaele Coel](https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2017/jan/08/michaela-cole-enjoy-making-people-uncomfortable-chewing-gum-season-two) would have made a great Nina Simone. Sorry for misunderstanding your point, **Guin**. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/123 "2018-07-16T23:41:54Z")
Ah, I see. Although I always thought that the big nose stereotype was a Jewish thing. Shows what I know. I looked it up and apparently they were originally going to have Mary J. Blige. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/124 "2018-07-16T23:48:12Z")
Well, there’s “big African nose” and then there’s “big Jewish nose”. They’re both big, but for different reasons/configured differently. Both have some basis in reality but both can easily become offensive caricatures. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/125 "2018-07-17T00:00:30Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I don’t know how relevant this is, but from a very young age I was scolded by my mother if I made any reference to shades of brown, if I mentioned that a black person I knew looked tan, if I expressed any envy of their ability to stand outside in sunlight more than 15 minutes without burning, basically, if I paid attention to any variation in the color of “black people”. > > Mother was the one I remember most, but I recall some other instances of white folks shushing other white folks for, basically, noticing these things. > > None of which makes anything I’m talking about right, I’m just saying, there maybe be a cultural factor at work of which you are unaware. Not just indifference, but _actively discouraging_ children from noting variations in skin color. I’m sure it contributes to the effect you noted. > > Oddly enough, I’ve never had a _black_ person scold me for saying a particular person is very dark-skinned, or relatively light skinned for their ethnicity. Maybe I’m just clued in to doing it in a respectful manner, purely as a way of describing someone. I like to think I am, I certainly try to be. I’ve never heard a white person describe a black person by their skin tone. I’m guessing it’s not just due to the pressure you describe, but also because white people don’t get practice with descriptors, which are learned through lots of experience. Like, it’s easy for me to communicate skin tone with another black person because there’s typically an unspoken consensus on where “light-skinned” ends and “red” or “light brown” begins. I could see a white person struggling with this due to lack of exposure. But what you posted is really interesting and probably explains why **Chrono’s** comment irked me. To my ear, “I don’t notice shades of brown” is just a step away from “I don’t see color”, which is just a step from “I’m not racist but you must be because you see color and shades of brown”. I know that’s not at all what **Chronos** said, but I’ve heard enough of that shit that I’m now sensitive to it. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/126 "2018-07-17T00:47:55Z")
And another thread about transgender people gets hijacked by racial discussions. Sigh. Just kidding! I guess I watched more black comedians in he 80’s or something because the exact shade issue in the black community is so old hat to me, I’m rather surprised anyone doesn’t know about it. 15 or 20 years ago I had a black classmate who joked about hitting the tanning salon before a family gathering so as not to getvteased about being the lightest skinned one there. As I implied before, I am not sure how well transgender represantation maps on to racial representation in the movies. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/127 "2018-07-17T01:05:13Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I would take people upholding the principle of acting freedom a lot more seriously if I hadn’t seen a lot of those same people complaining when the role of a white male character is recast and given to a minority or female actor. > > _“Oh no, Idris Elba can’t play Heimdall. Heimdall’s supposed to be white. Halle Berry can’t play Catwoman. Catwoman’s supposed to be white. Katee Sackhoff can’t play Starbuck, Starbuck’s supposed to be a man. Michael Clarke Duncan can’t play Kingpin. Kingpin’s supposed to be white. Michael Jordan can’t play the Human Torch The Human Torch is supposed to be white. Morgan Freedman can’t play Red. Red’s supposed to be white. Judi Dench can’t play M. M’s supposed to be a man. Billy Dee Williams can’t play Harvey Dent. Harvey Dent’s supposed to be white. Women can’t play the Ghostbusters. The Ghostbusters are supposed to be men. It’s all a bunch of political correctness gone mad.”_ > > But take a minority character and cast a non-minority actor in the role? > > _“What’s the matter? Haven’t you ever heard of acting? You just want reverse discrimination.”_ I never heard anyone objecting to Halle Berry being cast as Catwoman, especially given the Ertha Kitt precedent. (Now, her actual performance was another matter.) Also, I never hear anyone complaining about a white woman being substituted for an Asian man in the role of “The Ancient One” in the “Doctor Strange” movie. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/128 "2018-07-17T01:48:13Z")
> [@E-DUB](#): > > I never heard anyone objecting to Halle Berry being cast as Catwoman, especially given the Ertha Kitt precedent. (Now, her actual performance was another matter.) Also, I never hear anyone complaining about a white woman being substituted for an Asian man in the role of “The Ancient One” in the “Doctor Strange” movie. Oh, there was a ton of complaining about Doctor Strange. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/129 "2018-07-17T03:30:03Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Oh, there was a ton of complaining about Doctor Strange. I wonder if he/she means “No one bitched that a woman was taking a mans role away” …and I’m glad this was brought up cause Margaret Cho can kiss my ass. Oh no. Boo-hoo. This ‘traditionally asian role was taken by a white woman.’ Yeah, I’m sure The Ancient One is a REALLY well-known role. Right up there with Fin Fang Foom and Postman Willie. Besides Margaret…in that context YOU’RE the racist for lumping all Asians together. If he was Tibetan, being played by a Chinese actor wouldn’t be cool. You wouldn’t particularly want a Japanese actor playing a Korean one. As for Nina Simone…Monstro makes some good points…but lemme just say, in other places, the arguments I’ve seen are made by some people who definitely did not see School Daze. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/130 "2018-07-17T09:12:12Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But what you posted is really interesting and probably explains why **Chrono’s** comment irked me. To my ear, “I don’t notice shades of brown” is just a step away from “I don’t see color”, which is just a step from “I’m not racist but you must be because you see color and shades of brown”. I know that’s not at all what **Chronos** said, but I’ve heard enough of that shit that I’m now sensitive to it. **monstro** , that’s your prejudice at work there. You need to accept that some people genuinely are not bothered about shades of colour, nor exact ethnicity and don’t “see” them to any meaningful extent and it does not spring from, nor is it indicative of, a racist mindset. Just like when I see someone with a variety of a lighter skin shade I have absolutely no interest in wondering where exactly they come from. It may come up in conversation with them if it is important to them I suppose but rarely. You can quite easily say that all “white” people are the same to me, because they are. I certainly treat them all the same, i.e. as individuals. As I do with all darker shades and everywhere inbetween. I think it is rude, presumptuous and demeaning to do otherwise. If you yourself are black and are sensitive to this, I understand that and perhaps if you are USA-based then your racial sensitively is calibrated very differently to mine. But just as I respect your experiences and behaviours, I think you also have a duty to take people at face value when they say they have a genuine and benign non-reaction and non-interest to skin shades and ethnicity. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/131 "2018-07-17T09:19:50Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > It is not surprising to me that you don’t get it. You are a white person. You are likely quite unfamilar with colorism in the black community and the stigma that a woman like Nina Simone faced for her physical appearance. > > To select a light-skinned woman to portray Nina Simone not just glosses over that struggle, it shits all over. It perpetuated the stupid message that Nina’s very existence belied: that a dark-skinned woman who does not meet the Eurocentic ideal can be still be a star. And as mentioned already, it is a subject about which Simone had some very strong views. She would have been furious at the casting. > [@E-DUB](#): > > Also, I never hear anyone complaining about a white woman being substituted for an Asian man in the role of “The Ancient One” in the “Doctor Strange” movie. To be fair, I’m still not convinced Tilda Swinton is even human. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/132 "2018-07-17T10:25:13Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > **monstro** , that’s your prejudice at work there. You need to accept that some people genuinely are not bothered about shades of colour, nor exact ethnicity and don’t “see” them to any meaningful extent and it does not spring from, nor is it indicative of, a racist mindset. > > Just like when I see someone with a variety of a lighter skin shade I have absolutely no interest in wondering where exactly they come from. It may come up in conversation with them if it is important to them I suppose but rarely. You can quite easily say that all “white” people are the same to me, because they are. I certainly treat them all the same, i.e. as individuals. As I do with all darker shades and everywhere inbetween. I think it is rude, presumptuous and demeaning to do otherwise. > > If you yourself are black and are sensitive to this, I understand that and perhaps if you are USA-based then your racial sensitively is calibrated very differently to mine. But just as I respect your experiences and behaviours, I think you also have a duty to take people at face value when they say they have a genuine and benign non-reaction and non-interest to skin shades and ethnicity. ok ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/133 "2018-07-17T10:37:19Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > **monstro** , that’s your prejudice at work there. You need to accept that some people genuinely are not bothered about shades of colour, nor exact ethnicity and don’t “see” them to any meaningful extent and it does not spring from, nor is it indicative of, a racist mindset. Yep, “some people” are indeed \*privileged \*to not see skin colour. Doesn’t make them racist. Does make them privileged. There ought to be a term for that - if only there was _some_ commonality to all those _privileged_ people… ---
**Author:** ![Filbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/filbert/32/3433_2.png) [@Filbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Filbert)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/134 "2018-07-17T10:44:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yep, “some people” are indeed \*privileged \*to not see skin colour. Doesn’t make them racist. Does make them privileged. There ought to be a term for that - if only there was _some_ commonality to all those _privileged_ people… They’re all blind? ---
**Author:** ![Delayed\_Reflex](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/delayed_reflex/32/3172_2.png) [@Delayed\_Reflex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delayed_Reflex)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/135 "2018-07-17T11:01:53Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Does it matter that Scarjo is an A-List actress who can help build an audience, and there are no trans ‘A’ listers? What if the lack of a star means that the movie won’t be made at all? Is that a good thing for the trans community? I feel like this is a major factor that hasn’t been addressed in depth in this thread. The thing is that people are more likely to see a movie with big name actors in them compared to lesser names, so casting directors and producers are no doubt inclined to prefer to cast a more famous actor over a different actor who may be a more authentic fit, or over giving a minority actor an opportunity. It’s a legitimate concern that if you cast roles to maximise authenticity or opportunity for underprivileged groups, you lower the movie’s chances of success. Some counterpoints to this would be: -star power is no guarantee of financial success - tons of movies with A-Listers flop -how can there ever be a movie star from X underprivileged group, if they never get cast in movies? It’s a feedback loop that keeps them on the periphery. Perhaps unfortunately, it seems more likely for a trans actor to be cast in a big role playing a trans character (as opposed to a cisgender character), so it probably feels disheartening to trans actors to see prominent trans roles cast to cis actors -casting with authenticity at the forefront can have marketing benefits as well Of course it’s easy to say these things without putting my money or reputation on the line. Ultimately, in order to have a trans actor starring in a prominent role, someone has to be willing to fund such a movie - either some producers have to be willing to put some dollars on the line in the name of social justice, or the movie going public needs to show that they are just as willing to spend their money on movies without major stars (and if it’s the latter, will there even be the concept of an A-list actor anymore?) In this case, it’s hard to say what serves the trans community better - the movie coming out starring Scarjo, or the movie not being made at all. I think it could have depended on the actual quality of the production - if it was a well made and sensitive production that was also financially successful, it could have advanced social awareness and acceptance of trans characters in mainstream roles. If poorly made, it could be detrimental. Of course, these could apply even if a trans actor were cast in the role - however a dud might just be forgotten quickly as a bad movie rather than being bad for the trans community. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/136 "2018-07-17T11:03:20Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yep, “some people” are indeed \*privileged \*to not see skin colour. Doesn’t make them racist. Does make them privileged. There ought to be a term for that - if only there was _some_ commonality to all those _privileged_ people… I don’t think you need a special word for it. What benefit do you gain from labelling them? How about just using “people” and taking the time understand individual motivations and perceptions regardless of skin colour. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/137 "2018-07-17T12:53:45Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t think you need a special word for it. But what if one already existed? It would sure be a privilege to get to use the correct term of Art. > [@](#): > > What benefit do you gain from labelling them? How about just using “people” and taking the time understand individual motivations and perceptions regardless of skin colour. Because I find the insight that most of these “colour blind” people all seem to have _one_ thing in common quite _fascinating_. I mean, I have \*no idea \*what it could mean. Just…_fascinating_. Logically, with all these _individual_ “motivations and perceptions”, you’d think that would blur any commonality, wouldn’t you? That this “colour blindness” would average out across all groups. So any sort of clustering surely provides some useful information. One that the rest of us, who suffer so from not being “colour blind”, being “colour seeing”, as it were, would surely benefit from. I’m sure the secret to this “colour blindness” is some state that we “colour seeing”, we “differently colour abled”, if you will, could achieve for ourselves. _Truly_, we have much to learn from the “colour blind”. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/138 "2018-07-17T14:05:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Because I find the insight that most of these “colour blind” people all seem to have _one_ thing in common quite _fascinating_. > > I mean, I have \*no idea \*what it could mean. Just…_fascinating_. > > Logically, with all these _individual_ “motivations and perceptions”, you’d think that would blur any commonality, wouldn’t you? That this “colour blindness” would average out across all groups. > > So any sort of clustering surely provides some useful information. One that the rest of us, who suffer so from not being “colour blind”, being “colour seeing”, as it were, would surely benefit from. > > I’m sure the secret to this “colour blindness” is some state that we “colour seeing”, we “differently colour abled”, if you will, could achieve for ourselves. > > _Truly_, we have much to learn from the “colour blind”. The weight of that sarcasm is clearly crippling you. I don’t feel that’s a productive response to a fairly reasonable question but, that’s a choice for you to make. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/139 "2018-07-17T14:26:08Z")
His point was that only white people seem to be “color blind”. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2018, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867/140 "2018-07-17T14:30:28Z")
To be clear, I do know that there’s considerable variation in skin color among non-Europeans, and that a disproportionate number of successful black actors are relatively light-skinned, and I understand why that’s a problem. I just said that I wasn’t sure about Saldana’s color specifically, because in most of what I’ve seen her in, her skin has been artificially changed to something completely unlike any natural human skin color. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/scarlett-johansson-drops-out-of-transgender-role-in-rub-and-tug/817867.md?page=8)