# Schiavo autopsy released **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 15, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390 "2005-06-15T15:35:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/81 "2005-06-15T19:55:14Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > In short-He’s on your side, dude!(at least he appears to be, to me) Well, that’s what I can’t figure out. But I think you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![Maendosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@Maendosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maendosa)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/82 "2005-06-15T19:59:20Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > OK, sorry if I said anything untrue about the husband. I didn’t follow the case very closely, because I found it very painful for reasons I can’t go into to. But if he believed his wife was truly dead, it was wrong for him to be married to her while starting another family. There’s “moving on with your life” and then there’s starting a whole new family on the side. Wow. I thought I was impressed by your seemingly self-imposed ignorance of the facts of the case at the time this was all happening, but that’s nothing to how you’ve managed to make yourself look even worse now. Seriously, there’s a point at which you just need to admit you were wrong, period. ---
**Author:** ![Psycho\_Pirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Psycho\_Pirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Psycho_Pirate)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/83 "2005-06-15T20:22:39Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > Yes, she and others have been very hateful to Michael Schaivo. Granted. And now you are being hateful, too. > [@Mockingbird](#): > > Unlike you and she, _you devout and good Christians_, I’m not a hypocrite that hides behind religion to cast stones at people. First of all, I’m not hiding behind my religion to cast stones at people. I never got involved with the Schiavo thing. I felt (and still feel) it is a personal matter between Michael and Terri Schiavo. My heart goes out to her family (including her parents). Sorry you dislike us Christians so much. Just because a Christian doesn’t always follow their beliefs 100%, that doesn’t make that Christian a hypocrite. It makes them a human being. > [@Mockingbird](#): > > I also don’t have the arrogance of faith that allows me to make decisions for _everyone_ that should be left to the **individual** and those that are responsible for them. No, you just lack the tact to stop harrassing someone after they have apologized and conceded. Methinks you need a new hobby. I know this is the pit and all, but at the very least, take a chill pill. You’ve made your point. ---
**Author:** ![Boldface\_Type](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b5e925/32.png) [@Boldface\_Type](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boldface_Type)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/84 "2005-06-15T20:26:41Z")
> [@GaWd](#): > > I think he’s saying that the ME seriously “dumbed-down” the results to the cretinous masses would understand the results, and in effect serious professionals don’t have enough information to go on to actually make a knowledgeable guesstimate of what exactly was wrong with her brain. Bang on. > [@](#): > > He also backed up the assertion that she could be blind and vegetative and still have eye movement making her appear to not be blind. In short-He’s on your side, dude!(at least he appears to be, to me) Well, based on the brief info regarding the ocular gubbins, she could have been: - Blind, vegetative but able to track objects - Blind, non-vegetative, but able to track objects What’s given of the pathologists report on the WWW sites doesn’t let any statement be made with confidence. Also, we knew she had massive brain damage anyway, based on the PET scans. Further, IMO the reportage may well just confuse matters. Right-to-lifers might say ‘she had 50% of her brain - people can do fine with less than this’ (which is true). Right-to-deathers might say ‘she has 50% of her brain - so she was probably Seriously Fucked’ (which is true). Point being, the behavioural data we had stuffed down our throats for the last several months let us know that Schiavo was indeed almost certainly vegetative. The _combined_ behavioural and pathological data are a lot more meaningful than the pathological in isolation. Anyway, going back to the blindness thing, I think it was established that the tracking behaviour was a ‘best of’ collection of best tracking hits, now with a soundtrack by Country Joe and the Fish? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/85 "2005-06-15T20:29:01Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > . > No, you just lack the tact to stop harrassing someone after they have apologized and conceded. Methinks you need a new hobby. I know this is the pit and all, but at the very least, take a chill pill. You’ve made your point. I would point out that saying “I’m sorry **if** I said anything untrue about the husband” is most emphatically **not** : an appology or a concessiong they’re wrong. especially when they follow it up (as they did) with additional condemnation of the man who after **years** of doing everything he could to help her get better then realized that it was fruitless, yet still had enough internal strength and honor to bear the horrific shitstorm the hateful lying scum heaped on him over the years to continue to honor Terri’s last wishes, and managed to find some one to love and have a family with in the meantime. To begrudge him finding happiness of any kind in the hellish world he’s been forced to endure is evil spirited. and most certainly not appologetic nor conceding they were wrong about him. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/86 "2005-06-15T21:03:42Z")
[what’s the word for ‘way past delusional’?](http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/06/15/schiavo.autopsy/index.html) Schindler’s rep > [@](#): > > Their report shows what we have said – that Terri was not terminal," said the Schindlers’ attorney, David Gibbs. "Terri Schiavo was not in an end-of-life situation. The decision was made to end her life, and we believe it was done in a barbaric manner conveniently ignoring the evidence that there was no treatment that would have brought Terri back. None. never. random eye movements from eyes that could not see. pathetic. even more, they’re not done with their smear campaign against Michael. Ignoring evidence that showed “no sign of abuse, strangling” etc. they go on to paint him horrifically again > [@](#): > > He also said the autopsy still leaves unanswered questions, most notably what he called an unexplained gap between the time Michael Schiavo has said his wife collapsed, at 4:30 a.m., and the time a 9-1-1 call was made, at 5:40 a.m., according to the medical examiners’ report. > > “I think those 70 minutes are very, very troubling,” Gibbs said. “Michael Schiavo is the only person who was there.” > > He said he did not know if the gap was investigated at the time. the autopsy was not needed for that bit of info. The time he said she collapsed and the time of the 911 call were all known/knowable way back when. and why was he not been troubled enough to find out if the ‘gap’ was investigated at the time in all the intervening years? and this weaseling bit from Jeb-fucking-Bush > [@](#): > > Terri’s life and her death remind us all that life is so fragile and must be valued. We will continue to strive to protect our most vulnerable citizens. All innocent human life is precious and government has a duty to protect the weak, disabled and vulnerable," he wrote. "Our thoughts and prayers remain with the Schindler family during this most difficult time after attempting to thwart the constitution of the State of FLorida, _this_ is all you have? where’s your sympathy for Michael Shaivo who went through hell at your hands? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/87 "2005-06-15T21:32:46Z")
> [@](#): > > All innocent human life is precious and government has a duty to protect the weak, disabled and vulnerable Except when it comes to healthcare. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/88 "2005-06-15T21:46:37Z")
> [@Boldface Type](#): > > …now with a soundtrack by Country Joe and the Fish? Groovy. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/89 "2005-06-15T22:01:27Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Maybe you’re on to something. Maybe my frequent impassioned advice to Democrats is reactionary after all. Maybe all that is required is to do nothing, and let the Republicans self-destruct. Mind you, I don’t think the snooty taunting, a la Dean, is helping at all. But maybe it isn’t necessary yet to take to the streets. I wouldn’t say do nothing. I’d say, stand up for the bedrock principles that distinguish the Dems from the GOP, even though on the Federal level the minority party lacks the power to get much practical legislation to further those principles. Speak out for them, be the loyal opposition in the old-fashioned sense of pursuing one’s political philosophy in the real world by being loyal to the good of the country as a whole, whether that calls for supporting or opposing the party currently in power – but act from principle rather than expediency. Meanwhile, the Dems should lose no opportunity to highlight legitimate instances where GOP policies are harming the country, while pointing out how Dem policies would better for the nation. I’d love to see Barney Frank as head of the Democratic Party – he’s blunt-spoken but without the baggage that Dean carries, and he’s a principled liberal but also a pragmatist, not a blinkered ideologue. He can talk about issues on a non-policy-wank level without in the least talking down to regular folks. The GOP, I believe, has had it too much their own way, for too long, and are beginning to reap the harvest they’ve sown. They’ve become arrogant and overreaching (a fate the Dems would be just as much in danger of, if they held comparable power), but more important, they’ve overestimated the degree to which the radical fringe elements of their support represent their base. They badly mishandled the Schiavo case – disappointing the extremists while disgusting large chunks of their rational, more centrist base – and if the Dems can put up sensible candidates to oppose those who made the biggest asses of themselves, my gut feeling is that the GOP is in for some surprises in 2006 and 2008. But then, I’m an optimist. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/90 "2005-06-15T22:16:50Z")
I really have no words for the sensation that hearing the Schindler response to all this gave me. Sickened comes to mind. I no longer see them as hurting people–they are willfully and deliberately igniorant and hateful. I am glad that Terri is beyond their pathology. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/91 "2005-06-15T22:49:16Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I really have no words for the sensation that hearing the Schindler response to all this gave me. > > Sickened comes to mind. > > I no longer see them as hurting people–they are willfully and deliberately igniorant and hateful. > I am glad that Terri is beyond their pathology. Same here. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/92 "2005-06-15T22:52:08Z")
> [@Jeb-fucking-Bush](#): > > Terri’s life and her death remind us all that life is so fragile and must be valued. I dunno about that. Her body kept plugging along for fifteen years past when her brain said “Toodle-oo,” and would’ve kept going indefinitely. Sounds like life, in it’s most basic form, can be pretty tough. Her brain, on the other hand… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/93 "2005-06-15T22:57:38Z")
I’m sure the Schindlers will never admit they were wrong, they may be psychologically incapable of doing so. The cognitive dissonance that would arise from starting to realize that letting her die was the right decision could be beyond extreme. I say let them go on avoiding the truth if it makes them feel better, what harm can be done now? ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/94 "2005-06-15T23:11:36Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > I’m sure the Schindlers will never admit they were wrong, they may be psychologically incapable of doing so. The cognitive dissonance that would arise from starting to realize that letting her die was the right decision could be beyond extreme. I say let them go on avoiding the truth if it makes them feel better, what harm can be done now? What harm??? **what fucking harm???** are you serious? 1. They’re continuing their horrific attacks against their former son in law, apparently now that there’s proof he didn’t strangle her, poison her, assault her, they’re **still** attempting to suggest that he had ‘something to do’ with her condition (this despite their eloquent testimony in the lawsuit for damages to Terri where they extoled his virtues of good hubandlike conduct, perfect son in law etc.) 2. You don’t remember the death threats etc. that the judges who decided this case were getting? Continued delusion on their part, complete with assurances here and now that they will continue to flog the issue in as public a way as possible makes me concerned for folks like Michael, his new family, his lawyer, the judges etc. ?? what fucking harm indeed. IF all it meant was that they’d wallow in their venomous delusional filth for the rest of their days, I’d not give a shit. But it seems clear to me that they have every intention of continuing to hound Michael until they die. ---
**Author:** ![LouisB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@LouisB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LouisB)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/95 "2005-06-15T23:20:17Z")
Her parents are still willing to dispute the facts. [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8225637/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8225637/) > [@](#): > > Regardless of the autopsy findings, the Schindlers continue to believe their daughter was not in a persistent vegetative state, their lawyer, David Gibbs III, said after Thogmartin’s report was issued. He said they plan to discuss the autopsy with other medical experts and may take some unspecified legal action. ---
**Author:** ![GaWd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f08c70/32.png) [@GaWd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GaWd)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/96 "2005-06-15T23:26:55Z")
Oh fucking hell. You must be kidding me. Loons. They’ll probably take it to a priest and see if he thinks’ it’s an accurate ME’s report…kinda like asking Dr. Frist for his medical opinion. Sam ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/97 "2005-06-15T23:29:53Z")
**wring** , no argument on point number one, but an they really be blamed for point number two? None of them personally issued any death threats, did they? I don’t think they can be blamed for the actions of the loonier fringes of their supporters. (And, considering how looney the Schindlers are themselves, those fringes must be really fucking looney.) Other than that, I agree, the Schindlers have long since expended all their “greiving parents” capital. Their actions at this point are simply inexcusable, and their motives in the entire affair are highly questionable. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/98 "2005-06-15T23:31:25Z")
Some thoughts: –The full path report is available: [http://www.sptimes.com/2005/06/15/schiavoreport.pdf](http://www.sptimes.com/2005/06/15/schiavoreport.pdf). **Boldface Type** , my neuroanatomy is way rusty, so if you have any insight from the full report, let us know. –Yes, you can live with half a brain. I’m sure the right-wing nutbars will spend the next few days finding every case report of someone who has lost 50% of their brain tissue yet lives a life to one degree or another. Keep a few things in mind as they do. One is that there is no reason to think that the 50% of brain she had left was healthy–quite the opposite, if I’m reading the pathology report right. The other thing is that, as they themselves pointed out back when we were gasping at her head CT, one cannot predict clinical outcome from the degree of lost brain tissue. It is one piece of evidence among many, including the EEG (Terri’s was flat) and the neurologic exam (there were no reassuring signs on Terri’s), as well as the degree and timeline of improvement (exactly 0% in fifteen years). –The news stories are all reporting that there was no evidence in the autopsy that her initial insult was caused by an eating disorder. I happened to be in the clinic today with an attending who did some training in pathology, and neither of us could come up with what that evidence might be. In long-term purgers, there is a wasting of the enamel of the teeth, but I don’t know that you’d expect to see it fifteen years on. If she were abusing laxatives or diuretics, there’s really nothing you’d expect to see. The news sources are, IMO, wrong to make this statement, as it implies that they might have expected to see something that they aren’t. –The official report of the medical examiner is really reaching in a lot of places, particularly in trying to explain Terri’s low potassium. They try to explain why the 2.0 was not correct, but if that’s the case, it doesn’t make any sense that it was 2.9 after four hours of K+ supplementation and fluids. The only good way to put all these pieces together is that Terri was severely dehydrated, and the only good way to explain that is via some sort of purging, most likely vomiting. To blame it on anything else requires ignoring one piece of evidence or another. ---
**Author:** ![RunAmok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@RunAmok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RunAmok)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/99 "2005-06-15T23:33:53Z")
Weirdly, the Terri Schiavo brouhaha prompted my mother to announce that, if she were ever diagnosed with a terminal illness, she would divorce my stepdad. She’s afraid that he would pull a Schindler and make use of every medical technology at hand, regardless of her expressed wishes or quality of life. He wouldn’t do it out of malice, just a misguided sense that alive in any form is better than a peaceful and dignified death. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2005, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390/100 "2005-06-15T23:40:27Z")
**wring** , you have a cite that they are going to continue to hound him, or is that just what you _think_ they will do? Now that Terri is dead they have no reason to do so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-autopsy-released/308390.md?page=6)