# Schiavo question: What's the deal with the broken bones? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 23, 2005, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851 "2005-03-23T05:07:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/21 "2005-03-25T18:54:30Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > That document does not state what _kind_ of CPR was administered. CPR can mean many different techniques, depending on whether equipment and medicine are at hand. Chest compression? Defibrillation? Injection? To my knowlege, in the U.S, Cardio Pulmonary Resuscitation is regulated by the American Heart Association, making chest compressions a standard of care. If the chart says CPR, she had chest compressions. That said, remember there is no guarrantee that the document circulating on the internet as her medical history is genuine, it very well could be cut from whole cloth, by individuals with a hidden (or not so hidden) agenda. Since [HIPAA](http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/hipaa/privacy.html) Laws preclude the random release of medical information, its not likely. As far as her fractures go, if she had an eating disorder severe enough to cause her to have a cardiac arrest, she had stress fractures from calcium and phosphorus having been leached from her bones. End stage eating disorders can cause crippling bone disease. The fractures are not a smoking gun. The fact that her husband didn’t begin CPR is of little note, since, when its a loved one in extremus, training often flies out the window. In my opinion, he wouldn’t be fighting so hard to allow her some final dignity, if he didn’t love her. Why not just walk away years ago? When chosing between a complicated, unusual scenario and a simple one… chose the simple. Its almost always right. “When hearing hoof beats outside your window, think, horses, not zebras.” (from _The House of God_ by Samuel Shem MD) ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/22 "2005-03-25T19:01:37Z")
Which brings up a question that borders on the philosophical. If Michael Schiavo believes that Terri has no consciousness, no cognition, no comprehension, then how could she herself experience dignity, or the lack of it? It would seem she would be totally incapable. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/23 "2005-03-25T19:11:08Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Which brings up a question that borders on the philosophical. If Michael Schiavo believes that Terri has no consciousness, no cognition, no comprehension, then how could she herself experience dignity, or the lack of it? It would seem she would be totally incapable. So we don’t need to show any respect for the wishes of people once they have no awareness of their situation? ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/24 "2005-03-25T19:12:51Z")
Maybe he believes she has conscousness on another plane. But, since the Schiavo family’s private beliefs are none of my business, I won’t speculate further. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/25 "2005-03-25T19:19:09Z")
> [@Raygun99](#): > > So we don’t need to show any respect for the wishes of people once they have no awareness of their situation? But that’s avoiding the question I asked. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/26 "2005-03-25T19:22:52Z")
We as a culture reverence dignity long after a person is dead. Why else do we have cemetaries, where the plots are cared for meticulously? Or think of the Tr-State Crematorium case in Georgia. The owner’s actual crimes were fraud, yet he received death threats; fraud doesn’t usually cause that level of vitriol and loathing. There are also laws about “abuse of the corpse”, which exist because we have a concept of dignity for the deceased. Finally, consider the scrupulous observation of the dignity of condemned death-row prisoners, even unto their execution. What I’m saying is Terri’s dignity did not end with her heart attack or diagnosis of PVS; efforts to protect that dignity need not end there, either. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/27 "2005-03-25T19:28:35Z")
> [@paperbackwriter](#): > > What I’m saying is Terri’s dignity did not end with her heart attack or diagnosis of PVS; efforts to protect that dignity need not end there, either. Exactly. Dignity is not removed when consciousness is. If someone were to drag my corpse through the street after I died (to use an extreme example), I wouldn’t be aware of it, but my dignity would suffer from it. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/28 "2005-03-25T19:45:02Z")
So the answer is, no, she herself is incapable of experiencing dignity or indignity? ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/29 "2005-03-25T19:55:26Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > So the answer is, no, she herself is incapable of experiencing dignity or indignity? Like the exact opposite of what I just said? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/30 "2005-03-25T20:05:13Z")
You just said, “I wouldn’t be aware of it,” and that is my question. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/31 "2005-03-25T20:08:44Z")
In the sense that she is physically incapable of percieving **anything** , then yes. Is it your assertion from this that there is nothing that can damage her dignity? ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/32 "2005-03-25T20:15:18Z")
Dignity being a function of consciousness of oneself, then yes, there is nothing that can damage _her_ dignity. All the body dragging in the world doesn’t change it. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/33 "2005-03-25T20:24:43Z")
I disagree in the strongest possible terms with every word of your post. My dignity extends beyond my death, into how I am treated and remembered. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/34 "2005-03-25T20:37:18Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Dignity being a function of consciousness of oneself, then yes, there is nothing that can damage _her_ dignity. All the body dragging in the world doesn’t change it. An odd definition, and one that the history of Western civilization does not support. As far back as the desecration of Hector’s corpse being dragged around the walls of Troy by Achilles, such actions are acknowledged as robbing the decedant of dignity. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/35 "2005-03-25T20:57:10Z")
> [@Homer](#): > > On this he treated the body of Hector with contumely: he pierced > the sinews at the back of both his feet from heel to ancle and passed thongs > of ox-hide through the slits he had made: thus he made the body fast to > his chariot, letting the head trail upon the ground. Then when he had put > the goodly armour on the chariot and had himself mounted, he lashed his > horses on and they flew forward nothing loth. The dust rose from Hector > as he was being dragged along, his dark hair flew all abroad, and his head > once so comely was laid low on earth, for Jove had now delivered him into > the hands of his foes to do him outrage in his own land. > Thus was the head of Hector being dishonoured in the dust. His > mother tore her hair, and flung her veil from her with a loud cry as she > looked upon her son. His father made piteous moan, and throughout the city > the people fell to weeping and wailing. It was as though the whole of frowning > Ilius was being smirched with fire. Hardly could the people hold Priam > back in his hot haste to rush without the gates of the city. He grovelled > in the mire and besought them, calling each one of them by his name. “Let > be, my friends,” he cried, "and for all your sorrow, suffer me to go single-handed > to the ships of the Achaeans. Let me beseech this cruel and terrible man, > if maybe he will respect the feeling of his fellow-men, and have compassion > on my old age. [Iiliad, book XXII](http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.22.xxii.html%22) Presumably, **Walloon** disagrees with old Priam and would welcome this treatment of a corpse. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/36 "2005-03-25T21:16:56Z")
Dignity is “the quality or state of being worthy, honored, or esteemed.” Terri’s parents no doubt believe she is worthy, honorable, and they esteem her. Michael Schiavo no doubt believes that she is worthy, honorable, and he esteems her. Why? Because a person’s dignity is based on their own words and deeds in their lifetimes. And so, **Raygun99** , I disagree with you in the strongest terms. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ecks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bcef8e/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ecks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ecks)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/37 "2005-03-25T22:39:29Z")
On NPR yesterday, it was said that Michael Schiavo’s position became intractable during an early deposition. His attorney asked the Schindlers what they would do during various hypothetical future medical problems. He ran through a series of increasingly dire and horrid possibilities, running from amputations to open heart surgery; The Schindlers always answered that they would do whatever was necessary to keep her alive. Reportedly, after hearing this Michael said that he would never let them have charge of her care. Personally, I can understand that. At some point, you have to say enough. ---
**Author:** ![paperbackwriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@paperbackwriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paperbackwriter)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/38 "2005-03-25T23:15:34Z")
To amplify that statement, they also testified that they would use any measures to keep her alive, even if they were absolutely certain Terri would not have wanted that. ---
**Author:** ![picunurse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@picunurse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/picunurse)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2005, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/39 "2005-03-25T23:20:37Z")
> [@Walloon](#): > > Dignity being a function of consciousness of oneself, then yes, there is nothing that can damage _her_ dignity. All the body dragging in the world doesn’t change it. No, my friend, the definition of dignity, according to \* Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary\*: “dig-ni-ty : the quality or state of being worthy, honored, or esteemed.” Nothing about feeling worthy or cognizant of being honored or even, conscious of esteem. Sorry, but she is capable of having dignity as long as she remains in anyone memory. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2005, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851/40 "2005-03-26T00:23:54Z")
Dignity is not solely a reflexive quality, otherwise there would be no society-wide respect for the dignity of a person’s corpse, nor of a person’s memory. If dignity were exclusively defined by the present feelings of the person so dignified, “speak only good of the dead” wouldn’t be the watchword. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-question-whats-the-deal-with-the-broken-bones/295851.md?page=3)