# Schiavo: What are the ironies? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 26, 2005, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389 "2005-03-26T20:16:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/21 "2005-03-27T20:17:48Z")
> [@Fanny May](#): > > The big irony I see is that thousands of other plugs are being pulled and nobody cares, it’s all private. If this was not taking place in Florida would there have been any congressional and presidential involvement? ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/22 "2005-03-27T21:01:59Z")
The “pro-life” zealots have tried to bully their way into the hospice to force water into Terri, which would in all likelihood kill her. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/23 "2005-03-27T21:12:18Z")
The fact that the woman cannot live without artifcial measures, but religious zealots want those artificial measures sustained because clearly God doesn’t want her to die. (?) ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/24 "2005-03-27T21:16:05Z")
> [@ivylass](#): > > It’s come out recently that [Tom DeLay](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-delay27mar27,0,5710023.story?coll=la-home-headlines) went through a similar situation with his own father. And he joined the family in pulling the plug even though his father did not leave a living will. (I’m not judging him for pulling the plug- I would definitely want to die in such a situation- but for his sanctimoniousness on keeping her alive now.) ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/25 "2005-03-27T22:49:52Z")
A. “A bill to provide for the relief of the parents of Theresa Marie Schiavo,” and the conduct of those who passed it, represents everything that offends certain politicians about trial lawyers and their junk lawsuits. For example, they: 1. Shopped forums, looking for one that would rule in their favor. 2. Shopped experts, hiding and ignoring the opinions of those that would not support their arguments. 3. Made arguments that had already been rejected by multiple courts, including the United States Supreme Court. 4. Relied on “experts” whose opinions were influenced by their religion and their politics instead of science. Many of these experts have never examined the patient, and few have even looked at the medical records. Their theories lack general acceptance in the scientific community and have not been published in peer-reviewed journals. When trial lawyers do this, at least those representing plaintiffs, it is called “junk science.” 5. Relied on emotional arguments, instead of legal and factual ones. Arguments like these are the kind that result in those huge non-economic damage awards that are unfair to medical practitioners and their insurance companies. B. The same people arguing out of one side of their mouths that life is priceless, and out of the other that the highest monetary value for the loss of life is $250K. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/26 "2005-03-27T23:49:01Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > People who have spent the last fifty years federalizing damn near everything objecting to giving a federal court the right to review a state case… There was a federal court with the “right” to hear the case if it presented a question of federal law. That would be the United States Supreme Court. That court decided not to hear the case. Federal Courts do not have the “right” to overrule state courts on issues of state law, nor do they have the right to create federal common law that displaces state law.[_ERIE R. CO. v. TOMPKINS_, 304 U.S. 64 (1938)](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=304&invol=64) Moreover, federal courts have long held that they lacked jurisdiction to consider state probate and family law matters, especially when doing so would interfere with existing state proceedings. > **[FindLaw's United States First Circuit case and opinions.](https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-1st-circuit/1040268.html)** > > FindLaw's searchable database of United States First Circuit decisions since [http://litigationcenter.bna.com/pic2/lit.nsf/id/BNAP-68UMGG?OpenDocument](http://litigationcenter.bna.com/pic2/lit.nsf/id/BNAP-68UMGG?OpenDocument) (reviewing case discussing the “evil” of federal interference with state probate proceedings) [http://www.catea.org/grade/legal/juris.html](http://www.catea.org/grade/legal/juris.html) ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/27 "2005-03-28T01:07:55Z")
The fact that Mr. Schindler pulled the plug on his own mother. > **[The comatose woman tearing the US apart](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/nov/04/usa.health)** > > For 13 years Terri Schiavo has been in a coma - with her husband, her parents, the Christian right and now the president's brother locked in a bitter struggle over her fate. This week could see a final decision on whether she lives or dies. Suzanne... ---
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/28 "2005-03-28T13:51:07Z")
Whoever wrote that Guardian article should be taken to remedial writing class for burying the lead in the last paragraph… ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/29 "2005-03-28T14:11:05Z")
If Terry & Michael were a gay couple, there would be no debate whatsoever. One partner would have no say in the other partner’s health care. ---
**Author:** ![ParentalAdvisory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/53a042/32.png) [@ParentalAdvisory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParentalAdvisory)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/30 "2005-03-28T14:34:40Z")
> [@Reeder](#): > > The fact that Mr. Schindler pulled the plug on his own mother. > > [Playing God | US news | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1077219,00.html) Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/31 "2005-03-28T14:38:49Z")
Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2005 9:07:04 pm Post subject: 18 THINGS WE LEARNED FROM THIS CASE BY LIBERAL VET * * * 18 THINGS WE LEARNED FROM THIS CASE 1. Jeb Bush, George W. Bush, and Tom Delay are all world renowned neurologists. 2. 22 successive court battles that all ended in exactly the same way means there is something wrong with the courts, not the Schindler’s case. 3. Mike is after money which is why he turned down 1 million dollars and 10 million dollars to sign over guardianship. 4. Congress and the State Legislature of Florida has nothing better to do than pry into the private medical affairs of others. 5. Pulling life support is bad in Florida when authorized by the legal next-of-kin, but pulling life support is good in Texas when you run out of money and the mother pleads not to pull the plug on her baby. 6. Medical diagnoses are best performed by watching highly editted videotape made by Randall Terry rather than in person by trained physicians. 7. Minimum wage making nursing assistants are more qualified to diagnose a persistant vegetative state than experienced neurologists. 8. Cerebral spinal fluid is a magical potion that can mimic the entire functions of a missing cerebral cortex. 9. 15 years in the same persistant state is not really enough time to make an accurate diagnosis. 10. A feeding tube that infuses yellow nutritional goop is not really “life support”. 11. Jesus was wrong when he said that a man and woman should leave their parents and cleave only to each other. 12. Marriage is the most sacred of all unions, except when it isn’t. 13. Interfering in a family’s private tragedy is a great reason to cut short a vacation, but getting a memo that warns a known terrorist is determine to strike inside the US is cause to relax and finish up some R&R. 14. Pro-lifers are really compassionate people which is why they are hoping that Michael Schiavo dies a horrible painful death. 15. The Supreme Court of the United States and the State Supreme Court of Florida mean “Maybe” when they are saying “No!”. 16. Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia is a bleeding heart liberal. 17. 7 Supreme Court Justices were appointed by republican presidents, so it’s Clinton’s fault. 18. A judge who makes rulings based on the law is obviously an atheist, liberal, democratic activist even though he is a conservative, republican, Southern Baptist. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/32 "2005-03-28T14:59:32Z")
Giving morphiene to someone who can’t feel pain, giving pain killers for monthly cramps to someone who can’t feel pain. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/33 "2005-03-28T15:00:53Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Giving morphiene to someone who can’t feel pain, giving pain killers for monthly cramps to someone who can’t feel pain. Arguing that someone who is being given morphine is dying a slow, agonizing death. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/34 "2005-03-28T15:12:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Arguing that someone who is being given morphine is dying a slow, agonizing death Why are you saying her death is not ‘slow’? I haven’t really heard much of it as being agonizing either, a bit but that’s not the main thrust. The irony is that it is a state ordered inhumane death, and it would be considered child abuse if done to a child, torture if done to a terrorist, animal abuse if done to a dog. ---
**Author:** ![Improvisor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/50afbb/32.png) [@Improvisor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Improvisor)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/35 "2005-03-28T15:18:23Z")
The same people that are saying Terri’s live is so sacred are now sending death threats to Circuit Judge George Greer after he ruled against the Schindlers. ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/36 "2005-03-28T15:33:28Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The irony is that it is a state ordered inhumane death, and it would be considered child abuse if done to a child, torture if done to a terrorist, animal abuse if done to a dog. None of those would have expressed a wish for that to be done to them as an alternative to what they considered a more unpleasant fate. So the word you’re looking for is ‘different’ rather than ‘ironic’. ---
**Author:** ![5\_time\_champ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/5/278dde/32.png) [@5\_time\_champ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/5_time_champ)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/37 "2005-03-28T15:51:01Z")
I haven’t read every post of every TS thread-- but our resident legal expert **Bricker** has been strangely silent on this controversial legal topic. Or may he just went to Florida-- er, well, some place warm for Easter. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/38 "2005-03-28T16:03:05Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Why are you saying her death is not ‘slow’? > > I haven’t really heard much of it as being agonizing either, a bit but that’s not the main thrust. > > The irony is that it is a state ordered inhumane death, and it would be considered child abuse if done to a child, torture if done to a terrorist, animal abuse if done to a dog. But if it is a baby whose parents lack wealth in Texas, then it’s just sound fiscal policy. [http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/HS/content/htm/hs.002.00.000166.00.htm](http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/statutes/docs/HS/content/htm/hs.002.00.000166.00.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/39 "2005-03-28T16:11:10Z")
A news article cited in another thread, [/quote] [http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050326/ap\_on\_re\_us/brain\_damaged\_woman\_judge\_1](http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050326/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman_judge_1) : [quote] Attorney Pat Anderson, who had represented the Schindlers for three years of the court fight, filed three motions for recusal but said she could not get Greer to budge. “A lawyer told me when I first got involved in this case that he (Greer) does not have a reverse on his transmission,” Anderson said. “He apparently is too prideful to say ‘I made a mistake. I made a mistake because I didn’t have all the information and I am sorry I made a mistake.’” Given that every court that the case has gone to, including the Supreme Court, has said that Pat Anderson is wrong, when is he going to be less “prideful” and admit that he has made a mistake? ---
**Author:** ![Avenger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Avenger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avenger)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389/40 "2005-03-28T16:15:45Z")
In the interests of fairness, **Bricker** posted at least a couple of times in a couple of the pit threads on the subject. I think the main thrust of his opinion was that it isn’t a matter for federal legislation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schiavo-what-are-the-ironies/296389.md?page=3)