# School Choice and Vouchers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908 "2009-06-25T03:28:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/21 "2009-06-25T17:00:24Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > The problem with this logic (and I have heard it many times) is that when the number of students rises…this logic is all of a sudden no longer valid. MORE money is now needed. This can happen even in the same year…one school district has 5% less students but NO…cannot cut the budget the world will explode if you do…while a neighboring one has 5% more students and WE NEED MORE BUDGET! You have noticed the basic response of every group with a liplock on the public teat - We Need More. Teacher’s unions and the educracy respond to everything and anything in exactly the same way - moremoremore. Education spending in constant dollars has increased every year for the last thirty years. Test scores and student achievement have not. Guess what the teacher’s unions say in response to that. Parental involvement in the schools is always a good thing. Unless the parents get some real power. Then, not so much. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/22 "2009-06-25T17:08:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Education spending in constant dollars has increased every year for the last thirty years. Test scores and student achievement have not. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/23 "2009-06-25T17:21:36Z")
School policy should not be set based on the number of art classes, theatre programs, or cheerleading squads. It should not be set based on class sizes or arguments about economies of scale. It should not be set based on establishing community ties and supporting coherent neighborhoods. School policy should be set with a goal of giving kids the best possible education. Private schools give a better education that public schools. That’s what matters. Hence we should move as many children as possible into private schools. While some may disagree, there’s one group of people who are quite clear on the issue. > [@](#): > > A 2004 study by the Thomas B. Fordham Institute found that in the 50 most populous U.S. cities, urban public school teachers send their children to private schools at nearly twice the rate of all families and at a 22% higher clip than urban families. > > For example, in Obama’s adopted hometown, 39% of Chicago public school teachers send their children to private schools compared with only 23% for non-Chicago Public School teacher families citywide. One wonders what teachers on the inside of CPS know that the rest of us do not. > > To be clear, this is not an indictment of the decisions of public school teachers or U.S. Presidents who want the best for their children and act in furtherance of those interests. > > But it does beg the question, if, for example, CPS was not good enough for the Obama children and CPS is not good enough for the children of 4 in 10 CPS teachers, then for which children exactly is CPS good enough? [http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=120308A](http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=120308A) ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/24 "2009-06-25T17:25:55Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Parental involvement in the schools is always a good thing. Unless the parents get some real power. Then, not so much. Or if the Parents who get power don’t know what they’re doing, or if they use school funds to pay for expensive and unnecessary trips for the board members to go on rather than on the kids, or if they hire only their friends, competent/qualified or not for every position and gradually turn the district to crap when 20 years ago it was full of great teachers with high achieving students and great reading and test scores. (this is pretty much exactly what happened to my parent’s district from when my Dad started there in 85 and now just as he retired.) Not everything is black and white. Its easy to just blame teachers, but they don’t control the entire system. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/25 "2009-06-25T17:30:45Z")
Private schools have better test scores because they can pick and choose what students they accept, as well as how many. Public schools must provide an education for every child that wants/needs one. In order for it to be fair, private schools must then have to accept any student that wants to go there and has a voucher. No standards, no exceptions. Then what happens to the performace of the private schools when they can’t just eliminate the problem students that get horrible test scores and ruin the environment for all of the other students? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/26 "2009-06-25T17:35:47Z")
The worst indictment of the public school system is the fact that there are people who, if given a choice between a 100% no extra cost to them education for their kids on one hand, choose to pay thousands out of their own pocket to send their kids elsewhere. What if you could shop at grocery store A and fill up your cart at no cost, but you chose grocery store B at full price? What would you conclude about store A? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/27 "2009-06-25T17:37:11Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > .. that get horrible test scores and ruin the environment for all of the other students? So you admit that the public schools are a ruinous environment for children, but you want to maintain that status quo? You don’t want to give an inner city parent the chance to get his child the hell out of that environment? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/28 "2009-06-25T17:47:08Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > The problem with this logic (and I have heard it many times) is that when the number of students rises…this logic is all of a sudden no longer valid. MORE money is now needed. This can happen even in the same year…one school district has 5% less students but NO…cannot cut the budget the world will explode if you do…while a neighboring one has 5% more students and WE NEED MORE BUDGET! Sure. Because the school is spending 100% of its budget annually. In my example, if we have 10 kids and it costs $800, you could either spend that extra $200 on making the school better in some fashion or save it in case there’s a two student increase. For better or worse, I assume most schools (districts, whatever) spend it. So they’re getting $1000, spending $1000 and then when you have 11 students, they still need extra cash or else will be forced to cut programs. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/29 "2009-06-25T17:47:10Z")
People have always been willing to pay for exclusivity for themselves or their kids. Why would someone pay for a country club membership when they can just as easily play at the local public course for much much less? It doesn’t mean that the public course sucks necessarily, but my goodness, anyone can play there! For your example, what if store A was required by law to let anyone in off the street, even homeless people, but store B could kick anyone out that didn’t have a large bank account. I’m sure there are those that would pay to go to the large bank account only store, but that doesn’t prove that they have better products. Obviously this is just one possible reason that a person would make the decision to pay for something that they could otherwise have for free or for much less, but it is also a reason that has nothing to do with the quality of the public alternative. So essentially, I think your ‘worst indictment’ spiel is not quite as clever as you think it is. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/30 "2009-06-25T17:53:50Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > So you admit that the public schools are a ruinous environment for children, but you want to maintain that status quo? You don’t want to give an inner city parent the chance to get his child the hell out of that environment? School vouchers don’t do inner city parents any good, because nearly all voucher systems cover only a portion of the total cost of tuition at a private school. Inner-city parents can’t afford to cover the shortfall, while middle-class parents can. It’s essentially a regressive benefit. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/31 "2009-06-25T17:55:38Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > So you admit that the public schools are a ruinous environment for children, but you want to maintain that status quo? You don’t want to give an inner city parent the chance to get his child the hell out of that environment? Way to ignore the question. I’ll answer yours though. No, I do not think that the public schools are A-OK jim dandy. But the answer is to fix them, not eliminate them. What, pray tell, do you do with the students that won’t be accepted by private schools when all of the public schools disappear for lack of funding, or are left with nothing but rejects (which is what would happen in your ideal scenario where every student flees for whatever private school will accept them.) What happens to the idea that every child is entitled to an education when the schools can just decline to accept? Do you disagree with that notion in the first place then? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/32 "2009-06-25T17:56:53Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > So you admit that the public schools are a ruinous environment for children, but you want to maintain that status quo? You don’t want to give an inner city parent the chance to get his child the hell out of that environment? I think he’s saying that some kids are a ruinous environment for other kids. Which is not a problem you can solve by evacuating kids randomly to other schools - the kids will still be a problem whereever they land. Unless you think that the trouble kids will never get moved from public schools? ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/33 "2009-06-25T18:04:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Cite? [Ask and ye shall recieve.](http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=052609A) > [@](#): > > Here are the towering facts: The U.S. spends a huge amount on education; more per student than anyone else; more and more every year. Simultaneously, over the last 70 years, literacy has fallen, SAT scores have fallen, American competitiveness has fallen, and the general knowledge of ordinary citizens has fallen. Teenagers graduate from high school who can’t read their diplomas; the country now has 50,000,000 functional illiterates. I recently saw on television that the wealthiest, most successful country in the world–that would be us–hovers around 18th internationally on reading, and 25th in science. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/34 "2009-06-25T18:19:19Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Private schools have better test scores because they can pick and choose what students they accept, as well as how many. Public schools must provide an education for every child that wants/needs one. In order for it to be fair, private schools must then have to accept any student that wants to go there and has a voucher. No standards, no exceptions. Then what happens to the performace of the private schools when they can’t just eliminate the problem students that get horrible test scores and ruin the environment for all of the other students? This is the standard excuse to explain away the high performance of private schools compared to the low performance of public schools, but [the facts are against it.](http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0377/is_n127/ai_19416359/) > [@](#): > > In 1980, the late James S. Coleman, a prominent, University of Chicago sociologist, conducted a comprehensive study of student performance in secondary schools. This study was commissioned by the Department of Education, and many expected it simply to detail what types of school characteristics are associated with student success. Most observers were surprised then when Coleman focused on the importance of a single school characteristic: whether schools are public or private. Further, because Catholic schools constitute a large and relatively homogenous group in the private-school sector, Coleman and his two co-authors, Thomas Hoffer and Sally Kilgore, directed most of their attention to differences between Catholic and public schools. They examined achievement test data and concluded that students in Catholic schools learn more than students in public schools. Moreover, Coleman rejected the claim that Catholic school students perform better on achievement tests simply because they are more talented or come from better families. He argued that the achievement differences between public and Catholic school students are, in significant measure, attributable to the different schools they attend. > > This study sparked significant controversy, and, over the next 15 years, numerous studies addressed the issues that Coleman raised. Coleman also continued working on the topic, and, in 1987, he and Hoffer published a book that dealt with both their original data and follow-up data collected after 1980. Taken as a whole, Coleman’s work, and subsequent research by other scholars, indicates that, on average, Catholic high-school students learn more than public-school students of similar backgrounds and ability levels. It was also found that Catholic schooling lowers high-school dropout rates. Making the reasonable assumption that what’s true for Catholic schools is also true for other private schools, that busts up the anti-voucher argument. The private schools do not win by carefully picking the best students and barring the door to the rest; they don’t do that. Many private schools exist to serve the poor and underfunded minorities, they do it on a shoestring budget, and they still beat public schools. Moreover, the dropout rate in public schools is a lot higher than that in private schools, the private schools are certainly not getting rid of failing kids to boost their test scores. It’s the _public_ schools that do that, yet they still end up with dismal results. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/35 "2009-06-25T18:19:21Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > The worst indictment of the public school system is the fact that there are people who, if given a choice between a 100% no extra cost to them education for their kids on one hand, choose to pay thousands out of their own pocket to send their kids elsewhere. > > What if you could shop at grocery store A and fill up your cart at no cost, but you chose grocery store B at full price? What would you conclude about store A? And yet there are people who can easily afford a private school education who continue to keep their kids in public schools. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/36 "2009-06-25T18:22:12Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > And yet there are people who can easily afford a private school education who continue to keep their kids in public schools. People vary, even rich people. That I would not buy a yacht even if I had the money says very little about the class of people who could afford to buy yachts. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/37 "2009-06-25T18:23:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Then where, pray tell, do you think public schools came from? 😕 They came from a need by industrial business men and govt officials to shape and mold compliant workers. Oh, do you think the American public education initiative started with pure motivations of generating 1st class philosophers and thinkers? Yes, I used to think that too. The public school system has been broken from the very origin of its inception. Read John Taylor Gatto. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/38 "2009-06-25T18:41:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > School vouchers don’t do inner city parents any good, because nearly all voucher systems cover only a portion of the total cost of tuition at a private school. Inner-city parents can’t afford to cover the shortfall, while middle-class parents can. It’s essentially a regressive benefit. So what we need is MORE money for the voucher program? I don’t know what you have in Orlando, but down here we have the school choice program lottery, which is basically where a handful of lucky people get to send their kids to quality schools and the rest are stuck with public schools. It certainly isn’t a voucher program. The problem I have is that school attendance is mandatory and that we have these shithole schools. One time I had business in the “downtown” school around here and I was honestly afraid, as a grown 200+ pound man, to walk in there. I must have heard 30 “niggas” and “motherfuckers” walking from the front door to the office from the kids talking to each other. Fights, graffiti, you name it. As a parent, I would be shocked and outraged if the state made me send my kid there every day, and I couldn’t afford another school. I say in all seriousness that whoever is responsible for that school should be in jail for child neglect/abuse. What do you do with those kids? I don’t have an answer for that. I do know that you don’t warehouse them in with other kids that are trying to get ahead. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/39 "2009-06-25T18:42:51Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Way to ignore the question. I’ll answer yours though. No, I do not think that the public schools are A-OK jim dandy. But the answer is to fix them, not eliminate them. What, pray tell, do you do with the students that won’t be accepted by private schools when all of the public schools disappear for lack of funding, or are left with nothing but rejects (which is what would happen in your ideal scenario where every student flees for whatever private school will accept them.) What happens to the idea that every child is entitled to an education when the schools can just decline to accept? Do you disagree with that notion in the first place then? When did schools become social centers for miscreants? I thought they were places for children to learn? If a kid can’t behave, then route him to some sort of reformatory school with different rules. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/40 "2009-06-25T19:15:34Z")
My question is, what about the families who are already affording to send their kids to private schools? It seems to me that they will be first in line to get voucher money, so where will that money come from? Even if it was proportionally cheaper to run a school with somewhat fewer students, the public school system would relieved of it’s money much faster than it would be relieved of its students. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908.md?page=3)