# School Choice and Vouchers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 25, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908 "2009-06-25T03:28:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/41 "2009-06-25T19:15:50Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > But how about we work on making sure that all schools have similar opportunities, rather than a few schools are great. > [@Airbeck](#): > > No, I do not think that the public schools are A-OK jim dandy. But the answer is to fix them, not eliminate them. > [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > hamstringing the ability of the socialized system to accomplish its mission. You guys are all working from a false premise. If the underperforming schools’ _only_ disadvantage was inanimate objects such as computers or science lab equipment, then spending more $$ on them to bring them on par with high-performance schools (whether public or private) _might_ make some sense. However, the real disadvantage are the humans… the teachers. The best teachers do not want to work at bad schools with troubled kids. No amount of govt spending can fix this. The best\* actors and actresses work in blockbuster feature films and not TV soap operas. It makes no sense to say we need to spend MORE money on soap opera productions so that it has the same quality as movies. It doesn’t matter if you use the more expensive cameras as feature films… it’s not the equipment… it’s the people. We (as consumers) follow the best actors (the **people** ) to the product offering… so we spend more $$$ on movies and DVDs with those actors and mostly ignore the less prestigious soap operas. (“Best” in terms of “desirability” and “appeal” and not necessarily “talent”). If I want to put my children in XYZ private school, I do it because I want the caliber of TEACHERS at XYZ teaching my kids. Maybe I can’t get those types of teachers at the neighborhood public school. If I could, I’d keep my kids at the public school. How do you “upgrade” an under-performing school without upgrading the teachers? The teachers union is entrenched and the inertia is insurmountable. Since you can’t wipe the slate clean and replace everyone, the only other option is to LEAVE that school. Vouchers allow parents to redirect their tax money to choose the teachers that will fill the minds of the kids. This awesome responsibility trumps all other reasons such as attempts at equality or socialization of neighborhood kids. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/42 "2009-06-25T19:22:52Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > What if you could shop at grocery store A and fill up your cart at no cost, but you chose grocery store B at full price? What would you conclude about store A? What would you conclude about store A _after_ it’s forced to give half its money and the pick of its produce to store B? ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/43 "2009-06-25T19:37:43Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > What would you conclude about store A _after_ it’s forced to give half its money and the pick of its produce to store B? Your analogy is flawed “produce” is “inventory”… not “consumers” “inventory” such as lettuce has no will of self-determination But “inventory” of the school would be the “teachers” and the teachers have self-determination: they have a choice in where they want to work It would be fair to give “consumers” (the parents) the ability to adjust their choices in response to choices made by good teachers. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/44 "2009-06-25T19:39:00Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You have noticed the basic response of every group with a liplock on the public teat - We Need More. Teacher’s unions and the educracy respond to everything and anything in exactly the same way - moremoremore. > > Education spending in constant dollars has increased every year for the last thirty years. Test scores and student achievement have not. Guess what the teacher’s unions say in response to that. > > Parental involvement in the schools is always a good thing. Unless the parents get some real power. Then, not so much. > > Regards, > Shodan Well…That is true…but you will not get me to agree on Teachers Unions. I used to be a teacher and I couldn’t believe how powerless/toothless the teachers union was. They had virtually no power whatsoever and weren’t even allowed to strike. ‘Negotiations’ consisted of 'Here is your offer…no additional step for experience…no cost of living adjustment…and, oh yea, you will teach one more class per day. If you objected they just sat back and look amused. If you kept pressing they would say ‘What are you going to do about it…you can’t strike’. Embellishment you say? No. The above scene I personally saw twice…out of 2 times I attended. Now, In some exotic state out east where teachers got paid over 2-3 times more than any teacher I’ve ever known\*, that might be true. However, in real America it is not…so don’t talk to me about ‘teachers unions’. \*Nothing will drive you to homicidal fury (or at least to leave teaching) than to be told teachers are overpaid and people quoting salaries of $80,000 in NJ when you are making $18,500…or better yet…to have your $18,500 salary quoted in the local newspaper as $33,000 because you have to add in SS, health insurance, building maintenance, Admin salaries or whatever crap they throw in. # I’m serious…my $18,500 was shown in the paper as around $33,000…and people would come to me and say ‘you’re paid pretty well eh?’ The REAL problem with teaching in the USA is that money SHOULD be spent on teachers salaries. In reality, less than half is. If you’d cut out the fat of admin and concentrate on paying teachers you COULD and not have to ask for bigger budgets. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/45 "2009-06-25T19:39:20Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > If I want to put my children in XYZ private school, I do it because I want the caliber of TEACHERS at XYZ teaching my kids. Maybe I can’t get those types of teachers at the neighborhood public school. If I could, I’d keep my kids at the public school. “me me me” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/46 "2009-06-25T19:46:06Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > [Ask and ye shall recieve.](http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=052609A) I appreciate the effort, but that’s not a citation. It’s just somebody else asserting the same thing, without providing any figures. > [@jtgain](#): > > So what we need is MORE money for the voucher program? Either more or less. If you’re going to subsidize private schools, than make them affordable for everyone, rather than just cheaper for people who can already afford them. I’m no fan of the voucher program, but if you’re going to have one, at least have one that helps the kids in the worst schools. 95% of existing school voucher initiatives don’t. > [@](#): > > What do you do with those kids? I don’t have an answer for that. I do know that you don’t warehouse them in with other kids that are trying to get ahead. Well, until you _do_ have an answer for that, it doesn’t matter what you know. You don’t get to Mars by lighting farts, either, but if NASA’s budget was cut to $5 a year that’d be our new space program. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/47 "2009-06-25T19:52:08Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > “me me me” 99.999% of parents have preferences for their children whether it comes to choices of school, food, entertainment, etc. Each choice parents make will put money towards one bucket at the expense of another. Don’t kid yourself into thinking you’re exempt from this. So, it’s also “you you you” ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/48 "2009-06-25T19:52:34Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > You guys are all working from a false premise. > > If the underperforming schools’ _only_ disadvantage was inanimate objects such as computers or science lab equipment, then spending more $$ on them to bring them on par with high-performance schools (whether public or private) _might_ make some sense. > > However, the real disadvantage are the humans… the teachers. Actually, the real disadvantage are the humans…the parents. A teacher friend of mine always used to say that conference days were a waste of time, because the parents who showed up were always the ones whose kids never had any trouble. An exaggeration, no doubt, but… But that is the great advantage of public schools - they get the kids whose parents ask over the dinner table “did you do your homework?” The bad thing is that those kids are being held hostage by an educational bureaucracy who is afraid people will find out how much power the parents really have. I would like to see a system with two kinds of schools - one is a public school, who is obligated to accept any student. Then all the other schools, who can accept or reject a student. If your student can’t get into any other school, because he is a chronic fuck up or whatever, then he can go to the public school. Yes, this probably means he won’t get much of an education. But all the other students, whose time is not wasted by the teacher trying to keep order or dumbing down the curriculum to deal with the lowest common denominator, will get a better one. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/49 "2009-06-25T19:54:20Z")
Um… that is the system we have now. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/50 "2009-06-25T19:56:20Z")
Actually, I think his answer is the same as most private schools, except just on a larger scale. Instead of improving a school by filtering out all the undesirable kids, you fix the entire school system by filtering out all of the undesirables. Then you put them all into, what was it, reform schools or juvie or something. Then after that, straight to jail I suppose, and then out of sight out of mind, right? School system is way better with all that refuse out of the way. Is that about it? ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/51 "2009-06-25T20:00:21Z")
that was a followup to the last line in **Really Not All That Bright’s** last post ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/52 "2009-06-25T20:02:50Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > You guys are all working from a false premise. > > If the underperforming schools’ _only_ disadvantage was inanimate objects such as computers or science lab equipment, then spending more $$ on them to bring them on par with high-performance schools (whether public or private) _might_ make some sense. > > However, the real disadvantage are the humans… the teachers. The best teachers do not want to work at bad schools with troubled kids. No amount of govt spending can fix this. > > The best\* actors and actresses work in blockbuster feature films and not TV soap operas. It makes no sense to say we need to spend MORE money on soap opera productions so that it has the same quality as movies. It doesn’t matter if you use the more expensive cameras as feature films… it’s not the equipment… it’s the people. We (as consumers) follow the best actors (the **people** ) to the product offering… so we spend more $$$ on movies and DVDs with those actors and mostly ignore the less prestigious soap operas. (“Best” in terms of “desirability” and “appeal” and not necessarily “talent”). > > If I want to put my children in XYZ private school, I do it because I want the caliber of TEACHERS at XYZ teaching my kids. Maybe I can’t get those types of teachers at the neighborhood public school. If I could, I’d keep my kids at the public school. > > How do you “upgrade” an under-performing school without upgrading the teachers? The teachers union is entrenched and the inertia is insurmountable. Since you can’t wipe the slate clean and replace everyone, the only other option is to LEAVE that school. > > Vouchers allow parents to redirect their tax money to choose the teachers that will fill the minds of the kids. This awesome responsibility trumps all other reasons such as attempts at equality or socialization of neighborhood kids. See, this is where I disagree. The real difference is human - but it isn’t JUST the teachers. Its the other kids. Public schools have an obligation to educate everyone’s kid. Which means my daughter goes to school with a nine year old bi-polar schizophrenic that regularly shuts down whatever classroom she is in. Which means that there are not one, but two ESL aids in my son’s classroom at all times. Which means that the staff list for my kid’s elementary school has an occupational therapist, a physical therapist, a social worker, a psychologist, a speech therapist - all to address the disabilities of the kids in school. And we wonder where all the money goes. Send the kids to a private school and the bi-polar kid simply gets expelled. The kid needing special speech therapy is referred to private care - the school doesn’t provide it. I kind of agree with Shodan, tier the schools. But I don’t think we should be funding private schools. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/53 "2009-06-25T20:09:19Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > School system is way better with all that refuse out of the way. Is that about it? You said all that sarcastically but explain to me why it’s so noble and productive to have the “trash” kids wasting the time of kids who want to teach and the teachers who want to teach? Why can’t school simply be a place to actually learn something instead of being some catch-all for social equality and fake inclusiveness? Maybe because the real argument is that we can’t all agree on the REAL, TRUE, and PRACTICAL purpose of schools. ---
**Author:** ![bobthebuilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bobthebuilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobthebuilder)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/54 "2009-06-25T20:14:46Z")
Just to throw another question out there What about homeschooling? Should homeschooling parents be able to get vouchers for text books? Also do we have any statistics that compare students from public, private and homeschools to determine which seems the most effective? I personally think that if people are not sending there kid to a public school they should not be forced to pay for it. Furthermore whenever possible I think homeschooling should be encouraged because it seems to be the most effective method of education, especially in the younger years. The main reason this is is because public and private education do not have the time resources to devote to each student. Each individual learns differently it is hard to carter to certain learning styles in a classroom environment. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/55 "2009-06-25T20:19:21Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > You said all that sarcastically but explain to me why it’s so noble and productive to have the “trash” kids wasting the time of kids who want to teach and the teachers who want to teach? And your noble and productive alternative is… what, exactly? > [@bobthebuilder](#): > > I personally think that if people are not sending there kid to a public school they should not be forced to pay for it. Furthermore whenever possible I think homeschooling should be encouraged because it seems to be the most effective method of education, especially in the younger years. Effective, yes. Efficient, no. I mean, any educational environment with a 1:1 student:teacher ratio is going to be highly effective, but you’re effectively asking somebody to work without pay in order to achieve it. For most families, homeschooling simply isn’t practical. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/56 "2009-06-25T20:21:30Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Send the kids to a private school and the bi-polar kid simply gets expelled. The kid needing special speech therapy is referred to private care - the school doesn’t provide it. Dangerosa, I appreciate that you’re the most well-spoken in arguing your side. You’ve written several long posts so this is obviously a topic that matters. What I don’t understand is why my goals in educating my child has to also take into account the bi-polar child. Why can’t I place my “normal” child in a different class (a different school) that’s not disrupted by bi-polar children without financial penalty (voucher)? Why is that evil? Parents make decisions on who their kids interact with (babysitters, doctors, etc) . Why should schooling be any different? I guess the dirty hidden question is: Do we as society “owe” something to the welfare of those bi-polar kids? I guess one could argue that we do. But I say we don’t frame the “solution” in terms of forcing everyone into the same school whether they want to or not. ---
**Author:** ![bobthebuilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bobthebuilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobthebuilder)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/57 "2009-06-25T20:25:34Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > And your noble and productive alternative is… what, exactly? > > Effective, yes. Efficient, no. I mean, any educational environment with a 1:1 student:teacher ratio is going to be highly effective, but you’re effectively asking somebody to work without pay in order to achieve it. For most families, homeschooling simply isn’t practical. Oh I fully agree. I said wherever possible. I realize that many are not capable of doing it. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/58 "2009-06-25T20:30:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > And your noble and productive alternative is… what, exactly? That’s irrelevant because I’m not the one trying to “solve” the issue of troubled kids. Yes I’m familiar with, _“if you not part of solution, you’re part of the problem”_ You also said “lighting farts will not get you to Mars” – you’re able to point out that something is wrong but you don’t necessarily know what is right (unless you’re one of the few scientists that actually DOES know how to build a rocket to reach Mars.) Same idea as what I’m saying. Many parents have immediate needs of figuring out to educate their child in the short window their brains are maturing. It would be nice if they also considered world hunger and child labor at the same time but it is not fair to expect it. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/59 "2009-06-25T20:30:32Z")
Ruminator, you do have a choice. You can send your child to any school that he or she can get accepted to, and that you can afford. If you don’t think that you should have to pay for the public school system with your tax dollars, then you have the option of petitioning your representatives to pass legislation that would allow you to opt out, or organizing a movement for the same end, or you can simply move somewhere that would already allow you do to that, or that doesn’t have public schools at all. Frankly, all I see is choices for you. ---
**Author:** ![Ruminator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Ruminator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruminator)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908/60 "2009-06-25T20:36:39Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Frankly, all I see is choices for you. Let’s not be facetious. Sure, in **absolute** terms, I have choices. If I wanted to send my child to Russia for adoption to avoid all education costs, that would also be a choice. I get that. This is an SDMB debate about relative choices with different financial effects. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-choice-and-vouchers/500908.md?page=4)