# School free lunches for all! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 5, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891 "2014-08-05T20:28:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/121 "2014-08-08T12:54:03Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Whatever conservatives pretend to be arguing, it fundamentally comes down to a fear that “undeserving bums” will get something for nothing and they will somehow be subsidizing it. Meanwhile children go hungry and the poor go without health care in the wealthiest country in the world. In the case of health care, more than $350 billion a year goes to the administration and profit of private insurance which, at the end of the day, accomplishes nothing except rationing and claims denial. And yes, this is _ **very** _ relevant to the school lunch program because the principle is exactly the same: proclaiming that the nation “can’t afford” to pay for everyone, they cheerfully pay twice as much – in direct costs and indirect social costs – to run vast and useless bureaucracies whose sole purpose is to make sure that some are excluded, in the name of some Ayn-Randian lunacy. I wish this would fit in a sig line or bumper sticker. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/122 "2014-08-08T13:27:22Z")
Those children eating free lunches today will, in ten years, be the soldiers we send to every corner of the earth to ‘defend our country’ and the taxpayers who support them. If defense is so important that we need to outspend everyone else then, it seems to me, it’s penny wise and pound foolish to throw billions in profits at arms merchants and then balk at spending a tiny feeding fraction of that on the health and well being of those young citizens. I think I can live with the idea of rich kids getting some crappy pizza and a cup of milk for free every day. ---
**Author:** ![skylyn12](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@skylyn12](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skylyn12)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/123 "2014-08-08T14:23:47Z")
Also keep in mind there are likely plenty of families that currently could qualify for free lunches for their kids, but for one reason or another they do not enroll in the program. So you end up with kids coming to school with junk or nothing at all. We constantly hear about how ‘bad’ our public schools are doing and here is a simple solution to work on making them better- give every kid a lunch. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/124 "2014-08-08T14:39:33Z")
> [@skylyn12](#): > > Also keep in mind there are likely plenty of families that currently could qualify for free lunches for their kids, but for one reason or another they do not enroll in the program. So you end up with kids coming to school with junk or nothing at all. I imagine if you lived in an area with a high concentration of poverty, you might take pride in being “better off” than your neighbors. But all it takes is an unexpected baby, illness, divorce, or job lay-off to push a family off the cusp of “okay”. To suddenly have to fill out a bunch of “charity” paperwork would be jarring to anyone who isn’t accustommed to it. Conservatives are the main ones downplaying the recovery in the economy and playing up the breakdown of the family. But they also are the main ones complaining about efforts to mitigate these things. I will never get this mentality. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/125 "2014-08-08T15:37:15Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I will never get this mentality. See the last paragraph of post #112. They’re afraid someone might be getting something they don’t deserve. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/126 "2014-08-08T16:08:44Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > . . . But all it takes is an unexpected baby, illness, divorce, or job lay-off to push a family off the cusp of “okay”. To suddenly have to fill out a bunch of “charity” paperwork would be jarring to anyone who isn’t accustommed to it. . . . Did you really just write that because it’s “jarring” to have to fill out a “bunch of “charity” paperwork” we should give everyone something free, that isn’t really free because it coming out of my pocket? Is that the threshold now for government support? If the form is too emotionally hard? Because if that’s now the bar I don’t know where we will end up. This is the mentality that I don’t get (I say with no sarcasm whatsoever). ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/127 "2014-08-08T16:25:29Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Did you really just write that because it’s “jarring” to have to fill out a “bunch of “charity” paperwork” we should give everyone something free, that isn’t really free because it coming out of my pocket? > > Is that the threshold now for government support? If the form is too emotionally hard? Because if that’s now the bar I don’t know where we will end up. > > This is the mentality that I don’t get (I say with no sarcasm whatsoever). The thing is you are paying either way. That’s what you don’t seem to get. You are paying for the infrastructure and bureaucracy to figure out who gets it and who doesn’t, or you are paying for some extra kids to get a lunch. You pay either way. There is no way to be part of a civilized society and not have to help with the upkeep of that civilized society. If you could get your head around this, then you would be able to understand the mentality. Your blind spot for understanding that you are part of a society is what is preventing you from getting it, IMO. By the way, any response to my post #101? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/128 "2014-08-08T16:33:15Z")
But school lunches are not “government support.” They are provided by schools because, like books and pencils and costumes for the school play, they improve educational outcomes. If we means tested everything schools provide, we would definitely create more jobs. But we wouldn’t save more money. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/129 "2014-08-08T16:57:01Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > The thing is you are paying either way. That’s what you don’t seem to get. You are paying for the infrastructure and bureaucracy to figure out who gets it and who doesn’t, or you are paying for some extra kids to get a lunch. You pay either way. There is no way to be part of a civilized society and not have to help with the upkeep of that civilized society. If you could get your head around this, then you would be able to understand the mentality. Your blind spot for understanding that you are part of a society is what is preventing you from getting it, IMO. > > By the way, any response to my post #101? I get it all, thanks. I’m a married guy with no kids, and we probably won’t have any at this point. What this means is that at the local level, the vast majority of my taxes are going to pay for schools that I’ll never have a child in. But I do believe fully that paying for that is a responsibility that I have a part of our society. Partially because I love our country and partially because a selfish part of me thinks I’m better off with an educated and thoughtful populace. On to the money end. I don’t concur that I have to pay either way. You are continuing to argue that in infrastructure to administer this program, is more costly than it would be to prove 60% more meals. I just don’t believe that. If that is the case, than I probably - probably - could be swayed. But I don’t believe the infrastructure is that costly. Back in the stone age when I was a kid, we ate breakfast at home, lunch at school and went back home. Then we said let’s help pay for some school lunches for the poor. Now let’s serve breakfast. Now let’s serve breakfast for the poor. All that is apparently not good enough. now we will serve both breakfast and lunch to all kids, richest, the poorest and all in between. And while I’m more than happy to pay for the school, teachers, utilities etc. I personally, would like to draw the line at buying the kids half of their meals during the school week. I’d like parents to do that. No one will care a lick, but my father was a bricklayer and my mother was a house wife. We were pretty poor New Englanders. And many a day I went to school with a thin jelly sandwich and a thermos filled with water. But I was taught that we needed to take care of ourselves and if I wanted to eat better I needed to work harder. And I know, and I may be unique, but if I was given other people money (OPM) I would have leaned to just hang out and someone else would provide, and I’d still be waiting. All of this doesn’t make me any better or more experienced than anyone else, but that’s my perspective. I don’t mind helping those truly in need. But I think this is way beyond that. ---
**Author:** ![mazinger\_z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@mazinger\_z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mazinger_z)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/130 "2014-08-08T16:58:05Z")
First off, I agree that spending money on something that isn’t a problem is a waste (e.g. providing free school lunches to children who do not need it). The “stigma” of having a free school lunch is much easier and cost efficient to deal with via the school ID swipe card. We studied this a bit at my school, the benefits of free lunch for all was underwhelming. Second, contrary to popular belief, economies of scale do not automatically lead to free or non-zero cost. There is the law of diminishing returns to contend with… Third, there are government requirements as to what the school lunch should contain. These add costs to the infrastructure of the school providing the school lunch. Working with the government is a pain in the ass. The contracts are unfair and they buy at bottom dollar. Before fed subsidization of lunches, school has to build a kitchen employ staff and they would heat up food to serve to kids. With fed subsidization, schools have to re-train or more likely, take on more staff, to handle all the fed checks and balances, handle the increased paperwork to pay the vendors, cook more nutritious meals on-site, etc. These factors push up the price of the free lunch. In simple terms, see it this way: Cap Ex to create kitchen and staff is $1000 to distribute 100 lunches at a cost of now $10/lunch. To meet fed reqs, the cost increases to $1100 to distribute 100 lunches at a cost of now $11/lunch. Furthermore, economies of scale are not equal across all inputs to create the lunch, for instance, adding a program director costs $100k to the school, but to meet the need of additional lunches and students, they have to higher an additional assistant director (it’s labor that’s the real killer in these equations) at $80k, increasing the cost of the lunch. Fourth, what about choice? Are we only offering one type of lunch? What about vegans, kosher, and other religions and lifestyles? Those also add to the cost. With limited choices, kids will choose not to participate. Less kids paying for the full cost or not taking lunches, again, increases the cost of the lunch. Fifth, with all federal programs, there is the slippery slope argument already mentioned, but also the politicizing of this. People will demand more of this non-issue. More opportunity for corruption as government and schools pick vendors. Google “‘free lunches’ economic issues” for more information. This idea isn’t new and is fraught with peril. I like the idea of kids eating free, but implementation is and the overall fact that it’s a non-problem indicate to me that there are better ways to achieve this goal than to already add to a bloated economy. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/131 "2014-08-08T22:17:57Z")
So why do you think the school came up with this? It will cost more money and be a pain in the butt for them. They work with the kids and community every day, so I don’t think they are just misreading the situation. Crazy? Drunk? Just putting us on? For all the talk some people like to make about local control being a good mechanism for fostering creative solutions, people sure seem to not want this school to be able to try to solve their problem. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/132 "2014-08-09T02:24:27Z")
> [@KarlGrenze](#): > > Magiver, you seem to be forgetting quite a few number of kids already use the same facilities and food, yet pay into it. The school lunchroom is not JUST for those who are currently too poor to get the free/reduced price lunches, but for everyone, even those who pay. > > It won’t necessarily mean more food, more storage facilities, more handling and energy, containers, and equipment, **because those students are already being served.** The difference would be, like **Shagnasty** mentioned, a likely reduction in the overhead required to run two different systems, one for those who do not pay, and one for those who do. Plus less paperwork and bureocracy in tracking who’s in the program and who’s not. But they’re already serving the children food and all those facilities already exist. “it won’t necessarily mean”… that’s quite a hand wave you did there. There is literally no free lunch. It’s going to cost money. If your solution is to raise taxes to cover this then explain the efficiency of that. There is absolutely no way to tax one dollar and get anything close to one dollar of benefit. And for every dollar borrowed there is an additional cost to pay it back which further reduces the money available from each dollar going forward. You’re literally making excuses to waste money. There is no “but what about the children” argument. They already get fed by their parents. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/133 "2014-08-09T03:59:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is absolutely no way to tax one dollar and get anything close to one dollar of benefit. Of course there is. Say spending $10,000 feeding a kid is the difference between them becoming a productive member of society instead of a deadbeat. In that case, society will reap a benefit worth many times what they paid. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/134 "2014-08-09T04:45:55Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Of course there is. Say spending $10,000 feeding a kid is the difference between them becoming a productive member of society instead of a deadbeat. In that case, society will reap a benefit worth many times what they paid. Well that’s a lovely thought except the thread is about giving free lunches to kids who are already fed by their parents and thus don’t need the charity. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/135 "2014-08-09T13:17:15Z")
This thread sums up a certain mindset in a nutshell. We need to expand the scope of government over people who don’t need it, and spend more money that we haven’t got on a problem that doesn’t exist. And the rationale is, “what about the poor starving children?” Classic. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/136 "2014-08-09T13:44:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Well that’s a lovely thought except the thread is about giving free lunches to kids who are already fed by their parents and thus don’t need the charity. No, this thread about covering an entire school once the eligible population reaches a certain threshold. The point is to ensure all kids that need the program are covered and to reduce administration costs. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/137 "2014-08-09T14:11:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is absolutely no way to tax one dollar and get anything close to one dollar of benefit. But sometimes spending a dollar in one way gets you more benefit than spending that dollar in another way. If 99% of the families can afford to pay for lunch, it’s worthwhile to spend the money to limit free lunches since the lunches will be more than the administrative costs. If 99% of them are eligible for free lunch, it costs more to determine eligibility than it costs to provide free lunch to everyone. The crossover point is going to be different for different benefits and different school systems- but a crossover point _always_ exists. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2014, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/138 "2014-08-09T14:20:06Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think he is saying that being able to beat up Russia several times over is more important than free school lunches. I guess a larger military will scare russia or something. Great, then you can pay for American school lunches by taking Russia’s lunch money. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/139 "2014-08-10T04:00:54Z")
> [@treis](#): > > No, this thread about covering an entire school once the eligible population reaches a certain threshold. The point is to ensure all kids that need the program are covered and to reduce administration costs. Well lets go the first post and read what the op wrote: “There’s a new program that is being implemented this school year on a nationwide basis. As I understand it, if a school district has a single school with more than 40% of the students eligible for traditional “free lunch”, then the district can apply for an expanded program whereby all students in the district will receive free lunch. This is referred to as the “Community Eligibility” program. From the articles I’ve read, the primary reason for this new program is to reduce the stigma associated with applying for “free lunch”. As they believe that some kids are going hungry because their families are too proud to individually apply for the program.” The thread is about giving children a free lunch who don’t need it. That’s the point of the thread. Shodan already summed it up nicely. A program for people who don’t need it using money we don’t have to to solve a problem that never existed. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2014, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891/140 "2014-08-10T11:06:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > A program for people who don’t need it using money we don’t have to to solve a problem that never existed. The problem, kids going without lunch to avoid the stigma of free lunch, “never existed”? Kids being singled out and shamed for being poor “never existed”? Despite the fact that people in this very thread stated that they personally went without lunch to avoid the stigma of free lunch? Despite the fact that people in this thread were personally singled out and shamed for getting free lunches? Feel free to tell us the problem isn’t important enough, isn’t wide scale enough, to justify the expense. Don’t try to tell us the problem never existed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-free-lunches-for-all/694891.md?page=8)