# School Officials Punish Student For Driving Drunk Friend Home **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 15, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309 "2013-10-15T14:52:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/141 "2013-10-22T15:37:08Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Is this a real problem? > > Is there a single example anywhere of the cops not being able to tell the difference? If so I’ll probably agree with you. But that wasn’t the case here. I don’t think it’s a problem. Yes, it’s a real problem. School rules and criminal laws need to be written so there is no room for misunderstandings or interpretation by cops who are expected to “tell the difference.” Something is either against the rules or it is not. If it is okay for a kid to be at my house while I’m drinking, what is the rule that says it’s not okay for that kid to be at my house while my 16 year old is drinking? I think we’re back to a rule that prohibits being around others who are committing a crime. Such a rule can be written, but it’s a bad rule. IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/142 "2013-10-22T15:39:18Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I agree that’s what she should have done, but it’s pretty easy to criticize any action with the benefit of hindsight. She may not have had a cell, or her friend may not, etc. Beep the horn. There were twenty seven people in the house. It’s not like finder her friend and bringing her out was a herculean task. > [@](#): > > The important thing here is that the cops _bought her story_ and the officer on scene apparently spoke for her at the school’s disciplinary hearing. What more do you want? Nothing. I’m fine with how this whole thing played out. If I were the school administrator, I might have given her a break, given that she was just picking up her friend. This could have gone either way. But am I outraged that they decided to be strict with her? No. It’s four volleyball games. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/143 "2013-10-22T15:40:00Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > I didn’t say she did all three. Read the posts. **Little Nemo** listed three things kids shouldn’t do: > > "No, kids shouldn’t have parties with alcohol. " > > "And kids shouldn’t drink alcohol. " > > “And nobody should be driving when they’ve been drinking alcohol.” > > Then he said she didn’t do _any_ of those things. But she did the first. She was at a party with alcohol when the cops showed up. > > Again, do you dispute this? She didn’t **have** a party with alcohol. Thus she did not do the first. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/144 "2013-10-22T15:40:35Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Yes, it’s a real problem. School rules and criminal laws need to be written so there is no room for misunderstandings or interpretation by cops who are expected to “tell the difference.” Something is either against the rules or it is not. If it is okay for a kid to be at my house while I’m drinking, what is the rule that says it’s not okay for that kid to be at my house while my 16 year old is drinking? I think we’re back to a rule that prohibits being around others who are committing a crime. Such a rule can be written, but it’s a bad rule. IMO. This is all in theory, though. You don’t have any actual examples of this sort of confusion on the part of the cops? ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/145 "2013-10-22T15:42:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > She didn’t **have** a party with alcohol. Thus she did not do the first. This is bringing semantic nitpicking to a whole new level. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/146 "2013-10-22T15:44:04Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > In either case, the rule as it stands today is that you can’t be at the party, even if you haven’t been drinking. If you disagree with this, that’s fine. But don’t claim she did nothing wrong. There’s wrong, then there’s wrong. Look, let’s say you play Trivial Pursuit, and the question is “Who invaded Spain in the 8th Century?”. You answer The Moors, and the guy says “Nope, that’s wrong, the answer is ‘The Moops’” According to The Rules your answer has to match the answer on the back of the card, so your answer is “wrong”. However, in reality, The Moops did not invade Spain, The Moors did, so your answer is “not wrong”. According to The Rules, she may have done the “wrong” thing by trying to give her friend a ride home. However, in reality, she was doing something “not wrong” she was doing a good deed by helping her friend get home safely. She deserves a suspension every bit as much as Spain deserved getting invaded by The Moops. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/147 "2013-10-22T15:46:48Z")
[Updated article on the story from the Boston Globe.](http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/10/15/north-andover-high-senior-punished-underage-drinking-case-fights-sanctions/1zUAhyT1On2ewfGfGBziVK/story.html) Some new facts. The rules in question are the “Massachusetts Interscholastic Athletic Association rules pertaining to student-athletes” if anyone feels like Googling them. Also this article states that she had trouble convincing her friend to leave which is why she was still there when the cops showed up. Makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/148 "2013-10-22T15:52:43Z")
[Here is the MIAA rulebook.](http://www.miaa.net/gen/miaa_generated_bin/documents/basic_module/MIAAHandbook1315.pdf) Interesting. So many schools have policies like North Andover’s that prohibit being around drinking at all that they address this in the rules: > [@](#): > > From the earliest fall practice date, to the conclusion of the academic year or > final athletic event (whichever is latest), a student shall not, regardless of the > quantity, use, consume, possess, buy/sell, or give away any beverage > containing alcohol; any tobacco product; marijuana; steroids; or any > controlled substance. This policy includes products such as “NA or near beer”. > It is not a violation for a student to be in possession of a legally defined drug > specifically prescribed for the student’s own use by his/her doctor. > > This MIAA statewide minimum standard is not intended to render “guilt by > association”, e.g. many student athletes might be present at a party where > only a few violate this standard. This rule represents only a minimum > standard upon which schools may develop more stringent requirements. So they leave it open for schools to have more leeway than N Andover does. But my experience with parents is that most schools take the hard line approach. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/149 "2013-10-22T15:58:07Z")
Has someone suggested that this is an extremely rare policy to have? You keep rebutting that suggestion that I think no one has made. The argument is that it’s a stupid policy, not that’s its an uncommon one. Obviously, the MIAA even had the good sense not to try to punish teens for being around other teens who are drinking–much less punish them for any period of time in the presence of alcohol. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/150 "2013-10-22T16:04:29Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > [Updated article on the story from the Boston Globe.](http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/10/15/north-andover-high-senior-punished-underage-drinking-case-fights-sanctions/1zUAhyT1On2ewfGfGBziVK/story.html) > > Some new facts. The rules in question are the “Massachusetts Interscholastic Athletic Association rules pertaining to student-athletes” if anyone feels like Googling them. > > Also this article states that she had trouble convincing her friend to leave which is why she was still there when the cops showed up. > > Makes sense. [Handbook.](http://www.miaa.net/gen/miaa_generated_bin/documents/basic_module/MIAAHandbook1315.pdf)(PDF) > [@](#): > > 62.1 From the earliest fall practice date, to the conclusion of the academic year or final athletic event (whichever is latest), a student shall not, regardless of the quantity, use, consume, possess, buy/sell, or give away any beverage containing alcohol; any tobacco product; marijuana; steroids; or any controlled substance. This policy includes products such as “NA or near beer”. It is not a violation for a student to be in possession of a legally defined drug specifically prescribed for the student’s own use by his/her doctor. > **This MIAA statewide minimum standard is not intended to render “guilt by association”, e.g. many student athletes might be present at a party where only a few violate this standard.** This rule represents only a minimum standard upon which schools may develop more stringent requirements. ETA:So you found out you were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/151 "2013-10-22T16:17:12Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Analogy fails. > > It would be more like this: You’re employer has a policy that you will be fined if you have one of the pens. Even if you don’t write with it, you still get in trouble. Everyone knows this rule. You borrow a pen for just a few minutes because you are helping out a coworker. The boss comes over and catches you with the pen. > > Sorry, but you’d then owe the fine. No, it’s more like this: there’s a policy that it’s against the rules to have a company pen outside the office. Joe is a bit lazy about this and puts a pen in his pocket and is walking out to his car. Jane realizes this, chases after him, points out that he has a pen, takes it, and starts walking back towards the office, holding that pen, so she can return it. Then the boss comes out, sees Jane holding a pen outside the office, and fines her. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/152 "2013-10-22T16:56:23Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Got a cite for this? I don’t recall seeing what the summonses were for. [Yup.](http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/10/15/north-andover-high-senior-punished-underage-drinking-case-fights-sanctions/1zUAhyT1On2ewfGfGBziVK/story.html) > [@](#): > > An officer indicated that “‘everyone at the party’ receives a summons for ‘minor in possession,’” the complaint said. > [@Debaser](#): > > Both the cops and the school and the girl and her family all appear to be on the same page. She was at a party where minors were drinking alcohol. > > What’s the confusion, exactly? The confusion, which is entirely on your end, it seems, is whether her being there was “wrong.” According to the cops (representing the state of Massachusetts) she did nothing wrong. Her parents, who are filing a lawsuit over this, think she did nothing wrong. The school is on a completely different page. How do you not see this? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/153 "2013-10-22T17:35:18Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > This is bringing semantic nitpicking to a whole new level. I know it seems that way to you, but when you are laboring in the Marianas trench of debate skills, everything looks like up. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/154 "2013-10-22T18:13:53Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > [Yup.](http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/10/15/north-andover-high-senior-punished-underage-drinking-case-fights-sanctions/1zUAhyT1On2ewfGfGBziVK/story.html) Thanks. > [@](#): > > The confusion, which is entirely on your end, it seems, is whether her being there was “wrong.” According to the cops (representing the state of Massachusetts) she did nothing wrong. Her parents, who are filing a lawsuit over this, think she did nothing wrong. The school is on a completely different page. How do you not see this? My point was that the school and the cops and the girl are all on the same page about the facts of the matter. No one denies that she was there. Of course they disagree about how “wrong” her actions were. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/155 "2013-10-22T18:19:37Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > Of course they disagree about how “wrong” her actions were. That’s not at all what you were arguing one whole page ago: > [@Debaser](#): > > The way the policy is enforced is that **you can’t be at a party with kids where alcohol is present**. **Everyone knows this**. The \*\*cops \*\*and the \*\*school \*\*are consistent with this in North Andover. Now you seem to be agreeing with me that the cops are, in fact, saying that it’s OK to be at a party where alcohol is present. Which is inconsistent with the school. The school is the only entity here with a policy against being around booze, and the policy is poorly written and incoherently enforced. The punishment meted out here does not jive with the policy as written; you seem to be arguing that the girl should have known what the unwritten policy was because “everyone’s on the same page” or something, but that’s clearly not the case. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/156 "2013-10-22T18:20:40Z")
> [@runner pat](#): > > ETA:So you found out you were wrong. What was I “wrong” about? The school administrator mentioned the rules of the MIAA, and I didn’t know what they were. So I found them and added them to the thread. You know, fighting ignorance and all that. I will say that it does appear a bit weasel-like on the part of the school to point to those rules as if their hands are tied when in fact the rules state that the school does have discretion here. But it’s still the school’s call. Every school seems to have similar rules. If you are at a party where minors are drinking, even if you didn’t drink yourself, you can get suspended from sports. All the kids know this. The MIAA doesn’t insist on this, but they don’t have a rule against it either. It sounds like schools just want to err on the side of caution, and I can’t say I blame them. I certainly don’t see many PTA types lobbying the schools for the right of their kids to attend keg parties as long as they aren’t drinking. But that’s just my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/157 "2013-10-22T18:21:50Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > The school is the only entity here with a policy against being around booze, and the policy is poorly written and incoherently enforced. The punishment meted out here does not jive with the policy as written; you seem to be arguing that the girl should have known what the unwritten policy was because “everyone’s on the same page” or something, but that’s clearly not the case. If this is true, why did the cops write up summonses for the 15 kids who weren’t drinking? Also, is it your claim the the girl didn’t know about the policy at all? I’ll need a cite for that, please. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/158 "2013-10-22T18:34:09Z")
> [@Debaser](#): > > If this is true, why did the cops write up summonses for the 15 kids who weren’t drinking? Because when it comes to underage drinking it’s guilty until proven innocent. And I get that – bunch of kids set their beers down as soon as they see flashing lights and then they’re not longer in “possession,” so the cops just assume that everyone was holding a beer. It’s bullshit, but despite this dumb policy they still didn’t get the conviction to stick for the girl in question. That says something, doesn’t it? > [@Debaser](#): > > Also, is it your claim the the girl didn’t know about the policy at all? I’ll need a cite for that, please. I dunno, she could have memorized the damn policy for all I know. The policy doesn’t forbid her actions, so it only helps her case if she did know about it. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/159 "2013-10-22T18:41:36Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Because when it comes to underage drinking it’s guilty until proven innocent. And I get that – bunch of kids set their beers down as soon as they see flashing lights and then they’re not longer in “possession,” so the cops just assume that everyone was holding a beer. It’s bullshit, but despite this dumb policy they still didn’t get the conviction to stick for the girl in question. That says something, doesn’t it? What “conviction”? You seem to be bringing in a lot of baggage to this that didn’t actually occur. She wasn’t convicted of anything because she wasn’t on trial. She was given a simple summons like everyone else at the party for possession of alcohol. You make it sound like the cops were out to get her and failed, or something. That isn’t what happened. > [@](#): > > I dunno, she could have memorized the damn policy for all I know. The policy doesn’t forbid her actions, so it only helps her case if she did know about it. You certainly seemed to be implying that she didn’t know the policy or was somehow confused about it. She knew the rules. She should have picked her friend up at the street. Her friend is actually the jerk here. She seems to have gotten drunk, called for a ride, then refused to leave with her ride thus getting her sober friend in trouble. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309/160 "2013-10-22T19:01:06Z")
SciFiSam: > [@](#): > > All this multiplied for teenage girls. Yes, you, drunken teenage girl, should stand, wobbling, on an unlit or barely-lit street (like most suburban streets) alone and waiting for a car. Much better than staying where you were. Alternatively, she could have called an adult to pick her up rather than one of her underaged buddies. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-officials-punish-student-for-driving-drunk-friend-home/671309.md?page=9)