School Prayer: Needs of the One outweigh Needs of the Many?

[Kalhoun]

@BobLibDem

I wonder how proponents of school prayer would react to a Muslim teacher leading the class in voluntary kneeling toward Mecca? The whole issue is about as silly as the supposed attacks on Christmas- Kids are in school about 40 hours a week. They are elsewhere 128 hours a week. Pray then.

But how else can they both ensure a win and act all non-christiany to their team mate all in the same motion? Little bitches.

[Lightnin]

@2nd Law

No organization of prayer by school officials, especially if they are doing it during school hours. If I’m paying them (through taxes), they shouldn’t be doing it on my dime.

If only those poor Christians had a place where they could congregate, learn about God, and pray all they want.

[Kalhoun]

@Lightnin'

If only those poor Christians had a place where they could congregate, learn about God, and pray all they want.

Jeeeez…maybe if they organized they’d have more control over their goddy lives.

[Hazle_Weatherfield]

I’ve never really understood all of the hullaballoo over prayer in school…or anywhere for that matter. Other than in church, I’ve never in my life prayed out loud and have wondered how this has even become a issue. How would anyone know you were praying. WHY would you want them to know you were praying? Look at me, I’m praying! Just pray, for Christ’s sake…hee, hee, hee. Seriously, I’m confused. Ever hear of silent prayer? I’m pretty sure it can be done.

[tdn]

I have no problem with kids praying in school, though I too wonder why they can’t just do it in church. But when one student gets singled out for not participating, we are dangerously close to having a problem. When the singling out turns to harassment, and the administration turns a blind eye, then by their silence they are giving their consent. To me this equates to endorsement, and is indeed unconstitutional.

As was said upthread, even if it were not a constitutional issue, the administration has a duty to make every kid feel safe.

[Eonwe]

@Polycarp

Preliminary nitpick: The Lord’s Prayer is in the Bible (in two versions); it’s pretty close to a consensus-of-all-Christians prayer, not exclusively Catholic. (Curious where you got that from, Eonwe.)

Heh. I suppose the only times I’ve heard it in a church setting have been at Catholic masses. Consider ignorance fought!

@Polycarp

Doing something by consensus for “team spirit” presupposes an attitude on the part of all team members to cooperate in finding something that they can arrive at consensus on. In this case, there being an atheist, a prayer would not be a consensus decision. And anything shy of consensus imposed by some on all is tyranny of the majority.

Thank you! This is kind of the crux of what my issue is, I think. If you’re doing something ‘as a team,’ then a prayer that doesn’t jive with the beliefs on all the team members is inappropriate and counter-productive towards the goal of team-building, and that point should be brought up by whomever is in charge (coach, or whomever). Group prayer (as opposed to individual prayer) builds cohesion, friendship, and team/group/community “spirit”, and denying a member of your team/group/community an oportunity to be a part of that because the action is inherently one that person cannot partake in, is just wrong. You’re no longer building bonds between all group members; in fact, you are intentionally choosing to build bonds with some members and intentionally choosing to not build bonds with others.

@Apos

I don’t think they were circle praying while playing sports, or else they’d be a pretty lousy team. But yeah: if they aren’t actually doing the activity at the time, it’s their time. If they’d otherwise just be talking to each other about stuff, why can’t they use that time to pray instead?

They can; I’m not explicitly against it (read the above response to Polycarp. I would say though that all time at an athletic event or practice counts as non-free-time, whether it’s on the field, in the locker room, or during a break. Both because that time is the coach’s to do with as he/she pleases, and because the coach (or teacher, or whatever) is the one who is directly responsible for the kids during that time. If you’re at practice from 6-8, then everything you do from 6-8 is done in practice time, not free time. This, though, is neither here nor there.

[Liberal]

@Apos

That might happen more often if you read what I write before responding, if that isn’t too much trouble.

I hope that’s true. But even more, I hope that when there is disagreement, there can also be respect. I take your response to me as a gracious peace offering. And I accept it with humility.

[Fear_Itself]

@Apos

The easy and obvious solution is to let the kids pray, but not have it be official or have the coach or other school officials organize or lead anything.

Or request that they pray the way Jesus taught his disciples to pray:

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

I see no reason to protect the rights of hypocrites.

[Liberal]

@What Exit?

Well his statement is factually wrong, but his feelings might be partially correct.
If he modified his statement to there are more loud Atheist than loud Christians on this board, would you accept this?

Liberal, is that statement a fair compromise?

It may be fair, but I don’t think it’s accurate. In this recent board poll, only two people said they were Christian (three if you include me as a renegade). Maybe Qadgop knows of another poll.

[Liberal]

@Eonwe

Is an atheist (or any other non-Christian) a jerk for demanding a small community change its ways to be more in line with said statement above? What if the atheist moved to the town (is an outsider)? What if he or she was born there and developed different views? What if it’s not a small town, but a larger community? Do these things matter?

I’d like to comment on that while the OP is still the topic of the thread. Although nothing would excuse deliberate mistreatment, it is hard for me personally to conceive holding a cause so dear that I would deliberately endanger my family over it. I’m as purist a libertarian as they come, but I wouldn’t dream of not paying my taxes because I don’t want my wife to lose our home. If I were a lifelong atheist with a deep mistrust of Christians, the last place I’d take my family to would be a town of 300 people in Middle America. Does a person have the right? Yes, of course. But with rights come responsibilities. If I do that to my family, it’s as much my fault as it is the locals’.

[What_Exit]

@Liberal

It may be fair, but I don’t think it’s accurate. In this recent board poll, only two people said they were Christian (three if you include me as a renegade). Maybe Qadgop knows of another poll.

I think I would prefer a more straightforward poll. My very strong impression was that while Atheists are represented on the Dope out of proportion to the US in general, Christians are still the majority, especially liberal Christians. I realize agnostics like me also reduce the Christian numbers, but again, still not a minority for the Christians as an extended group.

I am doing a search on IMHO for Titles with the word Religion and at least 20 replies. Let me see if I can find a more useful poll.

For what it is worth this poll from Dec of 2005, has 113 replies. http://208.100.26.199/sdmb/showthread.php?t=350436

This one from 8-29-2004 has 392 replies. http://208.100.26.199/sdmb/showthread.php?t=258023

Based on these two, I withdraw my objection. It does look like the Christians are outnumbered on the dope, at least according to unscientific polls on the dope.

It might be time for a new poll. It looks like it would support your position however.

Jim

[Eonwe]

@Liberal

If I do that to my family, it’s as much my fault as it is the locals’.

What is “it”?

[Liberal]

@Eonwe

What is “it”?

“If I were a lifelong atheist with a deep mistrust of Christians, the last place I’d take my family to would be a town of 300 people in Middle America.”

[Shodan]

@Eonwe

Well, sort of. But, speaking of jerks, it’s IMHO jerkish to allow for time for prayer at a school event, have school employees praying during such time, and then claim that the school is not “forcing” anyone to pray, so it’s ok.

Perhaps that’s the crux - I do not see it as “jerkish” to exercise your rights in a non-disruptive manner. As I mentioned earlier, the First Amendment is there specifically to protect against this sort of thing - the notion that it is “jerkish” to pray.

I actually kind of wish I had left the ‘constitutional’ part of out the OP, because I’m much less interested in that than I am in discussing how we deal with these situations as diverse citizens who need to get along and live in community with each other.

I think the minority needs to be at least as tolerant and respectful of differences as the majority does. More so, if the differences in question are guaranteed as fundamental rights.

Minority or majority, the fact that someone else is doing someone for which you have no taste is not a legitimate ground to complain. It is just as wrong for atheists to try to stop someone from praying as it is for religious folks to compel someone to pray.

Maybe I don’t like what you say in your newsletter. So I don’t subscribe. But I don’t get to tell you not to publish. Same with prayer. If you don’t want to join the prayer circle, you don’t have to. But you can’t try to stop it from forming with those who do.

If we need to “get along and live in community with each other”, then let’s not try to tell each other how to live. But that includes “I feel excluded because you pray and I don’t, so you should stop”.

Regards,
Shodan

[Lightnin]

@Shodan

Same with prayer. If you don’t want to join the prayer circle, you don’t have to. But you can’t try to stop it from forming with those who do.

If theists feel the need to organize prayer, they’ve got churches to do so in. Organized prayer has no place in a public venue such as school. No atheist has ever, to my knowledge, attempted to prevent prayer in a church.

Organized prayer in school is tantamount to federally-funded and sponsored religion. Why are you so unclear on this simple concept?

[FordPrefect]

@Liberal

“If I were a lifelong atheist with a deep mistrust of Christians, the last place I’d take my family to would be a town of 300 people in Middle America.”

According to his entry at this blog

But they would not even be in this place if it were not for me and my bright
idea about centralizing our business.

I must have missed the written or video portion where he stated he had a deep mistrust of Christians. Do you have a cite? I was kind enough to like the 20/20 YouTube video, please reciprocate.

[Qadgop_the_Mercotan]

Thanks for clarifying that, What Exit. I had previously thought that over half the board was at least nominally Christian.

[Eonwe]

@Shodan

Perhaps that’s the crux - I do not see it as “jerkish” to exercise your rights in a non-disruptive manner. As I mentioned earlier, the First Amendment is there specifically to protect against this sort of thing - the notion that it is “jerkish” to pray.

<snip>

Maybe I don’t like what you say in your newsletter. So I don’t subscribe. But I don’t get to tell you not to publish. Same with prayer. If you don’t want to join the prayer circle, you don’t have to. But you can’t try to stop it from forming with those who do.

If we need to “get along and live in community with each other”, then let’s not try to tell each other how to live. But that includes “I feel excluded because you pray and I don’t, so you should stop”.

I agree, but I’d ask you to consider Polycarp’s post and my response to it. I’ve been trying to formulate not only a response to my questions in the OP, but also to figure out what context in which to view the issue in the first place, and I think he really nailed it (assuming I understood him correctly). Doing things as a group sends specific messages, and accomplishes specific things, regardless of what the group activity is. In this case, the group choose, out of all the myriad ways they could have bonded as a group, a group bonding activity that by nature prevents certain members of the group from participating, and puts those members on the outside. The issue isn’t about prayer or non-prayer specifically, it’s about looking out for your team, and your friends, and your community.

Maybe this is a poor analogy, but it’s similar to a group deciding to begin every meeting by hopping on one foot together, though there is a parapalegic in the group. Jumping isn’t a “wrong” action, but surely the group must understand that the parapalegic is unable to participate, and that maybe a different activity would be appropriate so the whole group can participate in the group activity.

[vetbridge]

@Hazle Weatherfield

Ever hear of silent prayer? I’m pretty sure it can be done.

Sure, but when I flagellate my buttocks, the crack of the cat-o-nine tails can be heard up and down the block.

[Eonwe]

@Liberal

“If I were a lifelong atheist with a deep mistrust of Christians, the last place I’d take my family to would be a town of 300 people in Middle America.”

Well, certainly going there is the “fault” of the father, but that’s not what you mean, is it? How could going there be the fault of anyone else?

It seemed that you were talking about specific consequences of that action, and am wondering what those consequences might be, that are equally the fault of the community as the newcomer.