School Prayer: Needs of the One outweigh Needs of the Many?

Great Debates
101

[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
Some of us believe that “going along” with religious rituals from religions other than our own is wrong. Some religions explicitly say that- some Quakers won’t take oaths and some Orthodox Jews won’t visit churches. Some religions even say that it’s wrong for someone who isn’t a member to participate in certain rituals- Catholic Mass or a Jewish aliyah, for example.

People who, for whatever reason, believe that they shouldn’t take part in a religious ritual should, of course, be as civil as possible without going against their beliefs. But religious beliefs are a very serious subject to a lot of people, and it’s not right to force someone to do something their religious beliefs say they shouldn’t do.

But what kind of freedom of religion or speech does anyone have if they can’t tell people their religion? I’d be very unhappy in an environment where I couldn’t tell people I was Jewish, and I suspect most Christians wouldn’t like not being able to tell people they were Christian, either. It would be even worse if telling people your religion resulted in sanctions from the Powers that Be (in her case, getting kicked off the team).

There are, of course, rude and polite ways to tell someone your religion. We don’t know how she told them she was an atheist. If she was being rude about it, then kick her off the team for being a jerk, by all means (if that’s the usual penalty for that sort of jerkishness). But just saying that you disagree with someone else’s religious beliefs doesn’t inherently make you a jerk.

There are polite ways to not go along with what everybody else is doing. There are some people who seem to think it’s inherently offensive that not everyone wants to participate in their rituals, even if those people do so in a way that doesn’t interfere with the ritual in any way. These people need to grow up.
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I agree with most of your post. But I have found most churches of whatever denomination friendly to those who don’t share their beliefs. I was always welcomed into whatever church I wished to attend. After all, how can they convert you if they make you mad or turn you away.

It is true, we don’t know just how she announced her atheist stand. If she was rude, or condescending, that could have provoked a reaction. I hope she was nice and friendly about it, but who knows for sure.

However the reaction from both sides were probably blown up to huge proportions when the media stepped in. My bet is her dad was the real source of the tussle.

102

RE: prayer in schools, or anywhere for that matter:

If you offer up a silent prayer, doesn’t your God hear it anyway? It doesn’t have to be said out loud. In that sense, anybody could pray any time they wanted to in school and no on would be the wiser.

Why must prayer be made so public?

103

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
Is this in and of itself offensive? I find myself confused. Surely *not * giving a reason for praying with them would have been more offensive? After all, as an atheist, she has a good reason not to pray. Giving no reason could be seen as being petty.

Plus, she herself claims that one of the reasons she didn’t join in was that she felt it would be offensive for an atheist to join in with their prayers. In other words - she didn’t hate them or what they were doing, but chose to act respectfully.
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A lot depends of how she addressed them, the manner, the tone, the inflections all convey communications. I have told plenty of religious people that I don’t believe in their doctrine without causing a scene. I have even caused some of them to think seriously about what they believe. Atheists are a different sort, at least for me, they take offense at the slightest hint of my beliefs. I have a right to believe what I experienced without atheists constantly telling me they know better than I. It seems to me they are not very grounded in their beliefs and need to attack those who don’t share those beliefs. Just my observations and opinion.

104

[QUOTE=vivalostwages]
RE: prayer in schools, or anywhere for that matter:

If you offer up a silent prayer, doesn’t your God hear it anyway? It doesn’t have to be said out loud. In that sense, anybody could pray any time they wanted to in school and no on would be the wiser.

Why must prayer be made so public?
[/QUOTE]

God knows your prayer even before you pray, that is true, but we humans are a gregarious group, and love to do thing together. Nothing wrong with that.

I would like to see smoking, drinking booze, and a few other things not allowed in public, but I doubt it will happen. There are more deaths by drinking than by prayer.

105

[QUOTE=lekatt]
A lot depends of how she addressed them, the manner, the tone, the inflections all convey communications. I have told plenty of religious people that I don’t believe in their doctrine without causing a scene. I have even caused some of them to think seriously about what they believe. Atheists are a different sort, at least for me, they take offense at the slightest hint of my beliefs. I have a right to believe what I experienced without atheists constantly telling me they know better than I. It seems to me they are not very grounded in their beliefs and need to attack those who don’t share those beliefs. Just my observations and opinion.
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I’m afraid I don’t see how you can apply this to this situation. First off, you seem to be saying that atheists, as a whole, are more touchy and likely to react badly when you tell them your beliefs, which is a pretty broad brush to begin with. Second off, despite your suggestion now that it depends on her tone and so forth, you seemed pretty certain that in fact she did provide disruption. We actually can get some idea of the tone of her words; she said that she was concerned that praying with them would itself be insulting, showing that she was respectful and cared enough to not be insulting - certainly suggesting (assuming she’s not lying, of course) that she told her fellow players in a calm, respectful manner. Note also that she didn’t tell them to stop praying, nor did she attempt to disrupt their praying; she merely did not join in, and gave her reason why. There appears to have been no attack on her part.

I don’t think I have any hope of convincing you that atheists are not all horribly thin-skinned individuals. However, surely you can see that in this particular case, this specific atheist appeared to handle the matter well?

106

[QUOTE=lekatt]
I agree with most of your post. But I have found most churches of whatever denomination friendly to those who don’t share their beliefs. I was always welcomed into whatever church I wished to attend. After all, how can they convert you if they make you mad or turn you away.
[/QUOTE]

Of course they would. But my point is, there are people whose own religious beliefs would tell them that it’s wrong to go into whatever church, or participate in certain religious rituals. And those people shouldn’t be expected to do something that goes against their religious beliefs.

107

[QUOTE=lekatt]
God knows your prayer even before you pray, that is true, but we humans are a gregarious group, and love to do thing together. Nothing wrong with that.

I would like to see smoking, drinking booze, and a few other things not allowed in public, but I doubt it will happen. There are more deaths by drinking than by prayer.
[/QUOTE]
Doesn’t your religion prohibit bearing false witness? Where does anyone advocate banning prayer in public?

108

[QUOTE=Eonwe]
In other words, I’m not sure why prayer or group religious practice should get a pass when a school might step in in any number of other situations where a few kids are being constantly left out.

The problem is that when the adults are less concerned with providing a good experience for everyone than they are with maintaining specific, exclusionary behaviors, then the minority students literally have no support and nowhere to turn.
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I don’t think it should necessarily be the school’s business to step in and level the field for EVERY situation where some kids might be in the minority and thus potentially vulnerable to feeling left out. Prayer is a rather personal subject, and while I don’t believe that schools should have any place in organizing it, they also shouldn’t be in the position to keep students from praying on campus if they so choose. They shouldn’t be involved at all, ideally, unless a situation involving prayer somehow becomes a legitimate issue with regards to other school activities.

The problem is when students are specifically ostracized for NOT following the majority, as apparently happened in the OK case. It’s all right for there to be a minority as long as it is implied that being in the minority doesn’t make you somehow inferior. Not all kids like peanut butter, and that’s okay. Not all kids like Pokemon, and that’s okay. Not all kids have the same faith, and that SHOULD be okay. I’ve been in secular situations (one of them in a state-funded facility) where people have offered a group Christian prayer for whatever reason, and I’m okay with that as long as no one makes me participate and no one gives me crap about not participating. I’m not about to mess with other people’s religious customs as long as they don’t try to mess with mine. Prayer shouldn’t involve any malicious intent anyway, and if it does, that indicates a real problem with the people praying, such as that they may not act as pious as they claim to be.

109

[QUOTE=DanBlather]
Doesn’t your religion prohibit bearing false witness? Where does anyone advocate banning prayer in public?
[/QUOTE]
No. lekatt has no particular religion, so he is off the hook for that particular complaint.

110

[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
I’m afraid I don’t see how you can apply this to this situation. First off, you seem to be saying that atheists, as a whole, are more touchy and likely to react badly when you tell them your beliefs, which is a pretty broad brush to begin with. Second off, despite your suggestion now that it depends on her tone and so forth, you seemed pretty certain that in fact she did provide disruption. We actually can get some idea of the tone of her words; she said that she was concerned that praying with them would itself be insulting, showing that she was respectful and cared enough to not be insulting - certainly suggesting (assuming she’s not lying, of course) that she told her fellow players in a calm, respectful manner. Note also that she didn’t tell them to stop praying, nor did she attempt to disrupt their praying; she merely did not join in, and gave her reason why. There appears to have been no attack on her part.

I don’t think I have any hope of convincing you that atheists are not all horribly thin-skinned individuals. However, surely you can see that in this particular case, this specific atheist appeared to handle the matter well?
[/QUOTE]

Well, we only have her word for what she said. The others in attendance didn’t see it that way. The truth is: I don’t know. But if I had been there I could have stopped the situation before it started with a little kindness and common sense.

I don’t see every atheist as thin-skinned, no I don’t. Some of my friends are atheists and we get along well even when talking about religion. That is because we respect each others right to believe as they will.

111

[QUOTE=DanBlather]
Doesn’t your religion prohibit bearing false witness? Where does anyone advocate banning prayer in public?
[/QUOTE]

Better read my post again. You missed it.

112

[QUOTE=Anne Neville]
Of course they would. But my point is, there are people whose own religious beliefs would tell them that it’s wrong to go into whatever church, or participate in certain religious rituals. And those people shouldn’t be expected to do something that goes against their religious beliefs.
[/QUOTE]

What you say is true. There are people that hold beliefs so intensely that their beliefs cause them physical pain and suffering. In the Navy there was a fellow that told me if he went to any church but the one he attended God would strike him dead. He really believed that. Is it any wonder I keep advocating others to examine their belief systems for contradictions and items that are not true.

I seriously doubt there is one person posting on this board that doesn’t hold self-defeating beliefs, and that includes me. The most common are beliefs of unfounded fear, beliefs of unworthiness, beliefs of self-pity, and beliefs that others are more important than they, etc.

113

[QUOTE=lekatt]
When in Rome, do as the Romans do. They were there first. She could have kept quiet.
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Ah. So this country is all about freedom and respecting the rights of others. But if you got here first, you don’t have to? Gotcha.

114

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Atheists are a different sort, at least for me, they take offense at the slightest hint of my beliefs. I have a right to believe what I experienced without atheists constantly telling me they know better than I.
[/QUOTE]

In my experience, some atheists do that, some don’t. Just like some Christians are baffled or offended by the existence of non-Christians, and some (I’d say most) aren’t.

You might not know that the ones that don’t act like being an atheist means they’re better than you are atheists, though. The obnoxious ones are more obvious, be they Christian, atheist, vegetarian, non-TV-watching, or whatever. Some of them can’t seem to have a conversation that doesn’t end in a tirade about how they’re better than you. But that’s by no means limited to atheists.

I agree with her there. Praying is (or is supposed to be) a very meaningful activity for religious people. The thought of someone just going through the motions of prayer and having it mean nothing to them is kind of offensive- sort of like they’re mocking us. I think it’s much more respectful for non-believers to just sit or stand quietly without trying to draw attention to themselves while the believers pray.

115

[QUOTE=Eonwe]
I agree that they are not equivelant, however I don’t think this is a black and white sort of issue. Between ‘allowed’ and ‘required’ there are all sorts of shades of grey, including, but not limited to ‘encouraged,’ ‘rewarded,’ ‘punished,’ ‘frowned-upon,’ etc etc etc.

When dealing with children, much more attention needs to be paid to these shades of grey than when dealing with adults in the ‘real world’.
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But these children, will grow up to be adults, who will have to make hard choices. These are the same children that we want to fight off peer pressure to not drink and drive, have unprotected sex etc. If we can’t expect them to walk ten feet down the hall way while their friends pray, how do we expect them to be their own person when the choices get really hard, with more terrific consequences?

116

She is part Native American, so I think she wins on that particular point.

117

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Well, we only have her word for what she said. The others in attendance didn’t see it that way.
[/quote]
They didn’t? I haven’t seen quotes suggesting that she was deliberately rude when she opted out of praying. Have I missed them?

Let’s say you were there. How would you have handled the situation?

All i’m saying is that your immediate seeming certainty that the girl was in the wrong was misplaced. Now that you’ve agreed that may well not have been the cause, I have no objections. Apologies for saying that you think all atheists are thin-skinned; I should have said most.

118

On the general case intending to be discussed and on the specific case from the pit thread that certain users have hijacked over here…

If, and it’s a big if, if the students lead a prayer and it’s to a god shared by members of the audience (including audience members that are government employees), they shouldn’t feel like they aren’t allowed or shouldn’t to join in. Any more than they should feel like they aren’t allowed to say a little ditty to some other god of their choice, or make some secular affirmation of commitment to fair play and sportsmanship, or say nothing at all.

The problem is that the school failed, rather spectacularly, to supply an atmosphere where anything other than praying along would be okay and went so far as to punish a person that voiced a concern about feeling dishonest by pretending to participate. The school administration demonstrated in its response to non-participation that the prayer is neither voluntary nor student-led.

Further, I don’t think it’s possible to provide that atmosphere when the prayer in question is organized to be a public spectacle… which team prayer circles on center-court most certainly are. In the locker room? Sure. Knock yourself out. The minority types can sit it out without their non-participation being brought up to public scrutiny.

119

Not all prayers are created equal. Let me try to suggest where I think the line should be drawn.

Acceptable Prayer in Public Schools:
[ul][li] Students or teachers praying silently to themselves[/li]
[li] Students or teachers praying out loud, but not at a time when anyone is forced to listen to them (not during a lecture or mandatory assembly)[/li]
[li] Students leading group prayers during school hours, but not in a way that disrupts school activities. (Praying in the halls between classes or at lunch is OK, praying out loud while the teacher is lecturing is not.)[/li]
[li] Students or even teachers (if they aren’t being paid for their time) leading a prayer group on school grounds but after hours (or perhaps during lunch) provided participation in the group is voluntary and no one is rewarded or punished for their participation or lack thereof[/ul][/li]
Unacceptable Prayer in Public Schools:
[ul][li] Teachers or students leading prayer during classes (or other mandatory activities)[/li]
[li] Teachers requiring students to pray at a non-mandatory activity which isn’t inherently religious (such as “say this prayer or you can’t play basketball.” But starting the Bible Club with a prayer is OK.)[/li]
[li] Teachers requiring students to participate in religious activities, or rewarding or punishing them based on their participation[/li]
[li] Pressuring students to particpate in religious activities by actively drawing attention to them (e.g., “Who here went to Church on Sunday?”)[/ul][/li]
Having an optional prayer during an extracuricular event like a basketball game is probably fine (especially if it’s student lead), but only if it’s structured in such a way that students can unobtrusively opt out. The choice of how to opt out (just not saying the words, standing off to one side, leaving the room, etc.) should be entirely up to the student.