School projects, Stepford children, and coping with feelings of inadequacy

[Bricker]

@romansperson

That said, my husband is a teacher in a Triangle-area school and he is pretty good at ferreting out a kid’s real ability and what has been ‘enhanced’ by the parents (even though he has guidelines for each project which emphasize that work must be done by the kids, some parents just can’t seem to help themselves) and he grades appropriately based on what portion of the project he thinks the kid actually did.

@Hedda_Rosa

No 4th grader did that, and everyone knows it; in our school the teachers also graded accordingly.

With all due respect to the innate sensing abilities of the teachers mentioned above…

In fifth grade, I did a science fair project that involved weighing the tar and nicotine that came from cigarettes. (My mother had recently quit smoking at the behest of my brother and me). I, on my own, came up with the idea to do this, and I, on my own, built a little tube holder and filter, and I, on my own, connected our vacuum cleaner to the device to make it it “smoke” the cigarette, and I collected the filters and weighed them (before and after).

And of course I made the charts and display showing the results.

In fairness, my parents did participate by buying the Marlboro unfiltered boxes.

But my teacher’s reaction was that I could not possibly have thought of, and done, all that myself.

That pissed me off. My mom had to come in and talk to the teacher, and even then I am certain she did not believe me, although she did adjust her grade.

(Funny adjunct to this story: forty years later, this same teacher was a candidate for city council in my city, and rang my doorbell looking for support. I considered reminding her of the incident and affirming again that the work was mine, but my wife talked me out of it).

[Nava]

@WhyNot

There’s no such thing as 300% effort, but there is such a thing as doing more than the project’s requirements. If you’re required to list 3 geographic features of the state, you can list 3 or 4 or 5 or 10.

Funny, my teachers wouldn’t have given extra grade for that: they would have tried to figure out whether the problem was with the kid’s reading comprehension or their ability to read.

[Cold_April]

@Justin_Bailey

How many years ago was this?

And let’s not forget, kids can also get Internet access at the school, a friend’s house, a public library, their parent’s school (if the parent is in college), and a ton of other places. I repeat, everyone has ACCESS.

Yes, everyone theoretically has access to computers and the internet, and for short home work assignments it’s usually not a problem. What I was talking about was an extensive project lasting several weeks over the school holidays (so school facilities were out). And I was referring to the very poorest in society, the real hand-to-mouth families, who struggle to live decently. Presenting a poor child with a project that they have to work three times as hard to complete as a middle-class child with a computer in their bedroom seems extremely unfair to me. But perhaps the sooner everyone gets used to an unfair world, the better, perhaps?

[lokij]

with my daughter was explaining the law of diminishing returns. My daughter has had several projects over the years and with the exception of a couple of fun non-graded ones we’ve been very careful not to involve ourselves in them. I’ll give advice, I’ll make suggestions… I’ll purchase reasonable materials but I never wanted to be one of “those” dads that took over everything. She has run into some of the same issues as your daughter, projects that were plainly superior either by extraordinary effort or parental involvement. In those cases I asked her if she learned the underlying information the project was about… always a yes. I then asked her if she expected a good grade, which she always got because her work is nearly always of good quality and conceptually solid, and she said yeah. Then it was a successful project. Spending more time and money on something than you need for an optimal outcome isn’t a good idea, always define your goals. Now, if my daughter’s goal had been to have the BEST project in the class… that would be different but she didn’t feel that way. She understands that competition is important but not everything needs to be one.

[perfectparanoia]

@Unauthorized_Cinnamon

I think teachers do arty projects, dress-up projects, and so on to make learning “fun” somehow, but I don’t think the kids find these things fun much at all. I think most would actually rather study a map of NC and be quizzed on it, especially if they aren’t the artistic type. And I completely agree that this is terribly hard on the poorer students, and it’s not fair. Our school is in a very wealthy area, and there are some kids bused in from poorer areas, and I see all the time that the school operates on the assumption that parents have time and money according to what our neighborhood is like, and the poor Raleigh kid whose parents can’t come to events because they work two jobs, or who doesn’t have money to spend on costumes and art supplies must feel like dirt.

We live in a poor townhouse complex in a rich area. Now, we have a fair amount of extra cash but most other families in the complex don’t. I did the math last year and determined that between projects, fundraisers and parties, we spent 500 dollars per child at the school. And for the fundraiser, we only gave the minimum that would allow them to participate in the activity.

It’s really strange because even for art projects or class projects, our kids would much prefer to recycle things and make them their own. Even if they are misshapen, they love it.

And the fundraiser money goes to new books for the library. I would happily donate books but hitting us up for cash all the time is getting old.

BWAH!

[WhyNot]

@Nava

Funny, my teachers wouldn’t have given extra grade for that: they would have tried to figure out whether the problem was with the kid’s reading comprehension or their ability to read.

Sorry, I realized after I posted it that I meant to write “at least 3”.

[Lynn_Bodoni]

@Justin_Bailey

How many years ago was this?

And let’s not forget, kids can also get Internet access at the school, a friend’s house, a public library, their parent’s school (if the parent is in college), and a ton of other places. I repeat, everyone has ACCESS.

It was about 3 years ago. In that neighborhood, not many people had computers, let alone internet access. Once school was out for the day, the kids aren’t allowed to hang around, unless they’re in teacher-supervised sports programs, or other teacher-supervised programs. They aren’t allowed to just hang around in the school library before or after the official school day, as I did when I was a kid.

@Cold_April

Yes, everyone theoretically has access to computers and the internet, and for short home work assignments it’s usually not a problem. What I was talking about was an extensive project lasting several weeks over the school holidays (so school facilities were out). And I was referring to the very poorest in society, the real hand-to-mouth families, who struggle to live decently. Presenting a poor child with a project that they have to work three times as hard to complete as a middle-class child with a computer in their bedroom seems extremely unfair to me. But perhaps the sooner everyone gets used to an unfair world, the better, perhaps?

In my old neighborhood, there’s a lot of very recent immigrants (legal and illegal). They are far more concerned with putting food on the table than putting a computer on a desk, or getting internet access.

Again, the library isn’t always open when the kids needed it for homework. And if Papi and Mama are taking the bus to work because there’s no family car, then it’s kind of hard for the kids to get to the library on a consistent basis, especially if that library is a couple of miles away. During my last year and a half of high school, I was lucky in that I took a city bus home, and it passed right by a branch library that was about half a mile away from my home, so I was a regular. However, I’d certainly pass up my usual library visit if the weather was bad, because even just half a mile of walking in pouring rain is no fun.

[Maggie_the_Ocelot]

@Lynn_Bodoni

Again, the library isn’t always open when the kids needed it for homework. And if Papi and Mama are taking the bus to work because there’s no family car, then it’s kind of hard for the kids to get to the library on a consistent basis, especially if that library is a couple of miles away.

Not to mention if Papi and Mama won’t be home from work until 8, so they have to watch their little siblings and make sure they get their homework done, and maybe feed them dinner too. If you’re 11 and the oldest, and you have to mind the 8 year old and the 6 year old who always gets into everything, and the library is further away than the little ones can walk, how feasible does it become?

[MandaJo]

The inequality of access thing is a real bitch with no great solution. Yes, many kids do not have realistically feasible access to technology. Many kids have readily available access. And quite a few fall somewhere in between: no, there isn’t a computer with internet access and PowerPoint at home, but there’s one at the library, at their aunt’s apartment, at their friends’ house, etc. A lot of kids that say they have “no access” when you make an assignment really fall into this category, which is human nature.

You certainly don’t want to punish the kid with no feasible access, but you really, really want to encourage that middle kid–the one with access but not ready access–to get on the computer and start messing around–because no computer unit or class in school can substitute for the sort of familiarity you get when you need to use the computer to do things and so spend time fucking around until you figure it out. Having that comfort with technology–just that intuitive sense of how interfaces work, how to figure it out–is basically vital to ever joining the middle class. Can you imagine going off to college with the sort of rigid attitude toward technology we now associate with old people?

So you really want to encourage kids to use technology. But you also don’t want to punish the first set of kids, who have already been basically fucked over by the universe. You can do things to increase availability–many schools and libraries work frantically to do so–but that reduces the pool of “no access”, it doesn’t eliminate it. You can come up with alternate assignments for kids with no access, but then some of the kids with “problematic access” will take that route instead of stretching themselves. Furthermore, you risk having “poor kids” assignments and “rich kid” assignments, and that seems unfortunate. You can just not have technology assignments at all, but that means denying useful education to some because it can’t be shared by all, and is that a great plan? I mean, there are kids out there who can’t take calculus because they have to work 40 hours a week to support their families and there’s no time to study. Does that mean we shouldn’t offer calculus?

So it’s a mess. Good teachers muddle through and work with individuals as needed. Good parents talk with the teacher or teach their kids to talk with the teacher to work things out. And, as with everything, lots of kids fall through the cracks.

[Szlater]

@MandaJo

The inequality of access thing is a real bitch with no great solution.

There is a solution, it is personalised learning.

Educational needs run a wide gamut from learning disabilities, such as dyslexia and dyscalculia, to neuro-developmental disorders, such as autism, cultural and language issues to socioeconomic issues, emotional and behavioural issues and child safety. A teacher should take all of those into account when setting tasks for children. In the UK you cannot qualify as a teacher, or continue to practice as one without demonstrating that you understand and implement these needs for the children in your class. Collecting evidence of such during my training was an arduous task, and demonstrating them (alongside all the other qualities one has to demonstrate) in lessons involved huge amounts of planning.

For each child you maintain a record of their needs, which is updated and passed up as they progress through their education so that subsequent teachers can continue to address their needs.

Socioeconomic issues, which is what we are discussing here, are a major barrier to learning and failure to address them in your teaching means that the child will not make the progress that they are capable of doing, which means that you a not doing your job as a teacher. For instance, research evidence show that socioeconomic issues play a large part in a child’s learning to read (vocabulary development in particular) so unless you address that a child will struggle to read, and that has a knock on effect in other areas. One way you can address that is by having a selection of books for the children to take home, training parents to read with their children and running intervention groups for children who struggle.

It is not easy, infact it places a rather large burden on teachers to maintain records and plan for differentiation in lessons and homework (and at times in my training I found it utterly overwhelming) but it really does make a difference in how children progress.

WhyNot raised some issues after my earlier post about parents complaining about workloads, the interesting thing is that most parents are supportive, the ones that kick up a fuss tend to overestimate their child’s ability and I have seen one child placed in a group beyond their ability because of parental complaint only to have to be moved back to the lower ability group when it became clear to everyone that they were out of their depth .

I know that the education system in the US is very different from the UK, however the current research evidence is that personalised learning promotes the best outcomes particularly for children who are at the extremes of the scales (very low or very high ability).

[phxjcc]

@Unauthorized_Cinnamon

I squelched that, and told her it’s tempting to value ourselves only in comparison to other people, but we really need to just look at our own actions and effort, and “grade” ourselves on that.

IMO, she needs to compare herself to a reasonable sample of her peer group. If the other kids parents helped, those parents are not in her peer group. To me, this is the life lesson that needs to be understood by kids so that they can cope with life later on.

She may never be the most creative–ok, so what? Is she the best in math, science, spatial, physical, mechanical, people, written or verbal skills? She will learn eventually that she is better at something than her peer group and will probably eventually capitalize on that because people like being recognized for doing something well and tend to keep doing things that they get recognized for doing well.

Of course, she will eventually run into someone that can draw like Leonardo, do math like Newton, sing like Pavarotti and build a business like Rockefeller. Then you just tell her to shake her head and sit back and marvel. I have only met two of those [and I am old] and they are astounding.

[Nava]

@WhyNot

There’s no such thing as 300% effort, but there is such a thing as doing more than the project’s requirements. If you’re required to list 3 geographic features of the state, you can list 3 or 4 or 5 or 10.

@Nava

Funny, my teachers wouldn’t have given extra grade for that: they would have tried to figure out whether the problem was with the kid’s reading comprehension or their ability to read.

@WhyNot

Sorry, I realized after I posted it that I meant to write “at least 3”.

…and I “their ability to count”… looks like we both needed to wake up, heh

[eleanorigby]

@Justin_Bailey

I’m a librarian and I think the scoffing was spot on. It’s 2012, everyone has ACCESS to a computer and the Internet. What they do after that is up to them.

Another Librarian here and NO they do not–at least not convenient access. Our local Library doles out computer time in one hour increments and the after school and evening hours are often fully booked. Plus, the child has to have a ride to the Library (and home again-no good bus service here in the burbs). If a parent works an off-shift or has other responsibilities, getting that child TO the computer can be a formidable task. :dubious:

[Szlater]

@eleanorigby

Another Librarian here and NO they do not–at least not convenient access. Our local Library doles out computer time in one hour increments and the after school and evening hours are often fully booked. Plus, the child has to have a ride to the Library (and home again-no good bus service here in the burbs). If a parent works an off-shift or has other responsibilities, getting that child TO the computer can be a formidable task. :dubious:

Absolutely.

I had a 7 year old child in one of my classes (in a London school) who, on receiving a new pair of PE plimsolls (costing <$5), actually ran around the class and communal study area showing everyone the shoes with a massive smile on his face and tears streaming from his eyes. The same child came to school with toothache so severe that he was crying by lunchtime. This continued for close to a fortnight before his mother took him to the dentist (a filling had fallen out and he had a massive hole in his molar). If a mother is unable/unwilling to take a child to the bloody dentist (at zero cost to her except time) how likely is she going to be to take him to the library for his homework?

There would be absolutely no point in setting a homework task that involved the Internet for that child, much better to send him home with some photocopied worksheets, at least he then has a reasonable chance of achieving something.

[perfectparanoia]

@Szlater

Absolutely.

I had a 7 year old child in one of my classes (in a London school) who, on receiving a new pair of PE plimsolls (costing <$5), actually ran around the class and communal study area showing everyone the shoes with a massive smile on his face and tears streaming from his eyes. The same child came to school with toothache so severe that he was crying by lunchtime. This continued for close to a fortnight before his mother took him to the dentist (a filling had fallen out and he had a massive hole in his molar). If a mother is unable/unwilling to take a child to the bloody dentist (at zero cost to her except time) how likely is she going to be to take him to the library for his homework?

There would be absolutely no point in setting a homework task that involved the Internet for that child, much better to send him home with some photocopied worksheets, at least he then has a reasonable chance of achieving something.

But why does a 7 year old need to have homework, anyway? There have been countless studies (I’ll look them up if you need cites) that say children learn best through play.

With the typical family where two parents work, by the time they get home and get dinner eaten, there is only an hour maybe two for the kids to relax before they need to go to bed.

If their homework takes an hour (aside: even if it’s meant to take 10 minutes of actual work, some kids can’t do it that fast), they may have no time to play.

I can understand having work to be done outside of class for older kids but grade 2? Maybe studying for a spelling test or a quick math sheet. Anything else deprives the kids of time to be kids.

[Szlater]

@perfectparanoia

But why does a 7 year old need to have homework, anyway? There have been countless studies (I’ll look them up if you need cites) that say children learn best through play.

With the typical family where two parents work, by the time they get home and get dinner eaten, there is only an hour maybe two for the kids to relax before they need to go to bed.

If their homework takes an hour (aside: even if it’s meant to take 10 minutes of actual work, some kids can’t do it that fast), they may have no time to play.

I can understand having work to be done outside of class for older kids but grade 2? Maybe studying for a spelling test or a quick math sheet. Anything else deprives the kids of time to be kids.

Well a 7 year old will be in Year3, and so, taking into account nursery, reception, Year 1 and Year 2, they have considerable experience of school already, they’re in their fifth year of school.

Learning through play is done in early years and foundation (nursery and reception), KS1 onwards learning is through activities.

The homework for a Y3 child would consist of 20 spellings, an English activity, a Maths activity and completing a number of reading logs per week. Homework given with a deadline of one week, so the child has plenty of time to complete them. Nothing is too onerous or time consuming.

And as for children not working fast, well you only assign work that children have a chance to achieve (personalised learning) so not everyone gets the same homework assignment.

[JohnT]

@perfectparanoia

But why does a 7 year old need to have homework, anyway? There have been countless studies (I’ll look them up if you need cites) that say children learn best through play.

Learn “best”, perhaps, but not “only through”, and play isn’t enough to teach a number of concepts a 7yo needs to learn.

It’s all in parenting styles, of course, but we tended to be more real-world* with Sophie, and she understands that school, education, and homework are the price she has to pay to live in our household - school is her job, and we expect her to do her best at it. If that means homework at the age of 7, that means homework at the age of 7 (but I don’t think there was much of that in the 1st grade).

*At the age of 8 I sat her down and calculated how much we spend on her in an average month, so she could see the numbers add up (It was about $1,400/mo). This made quite an impression on her and is now quite frugal (for a 10yo), saving her money for desired purchases and not spending her allowance on whims.

[Szlater]

@JohnT

Learn “best”, perhaps, but not “only through”, and play isn’t enough to teach a number of concepts a 7yo needs to learn. .

Vygotsky’s Zone of Proximal Development (Social Constructivism) is the prevailing learning theory in England. The UK governments of the past 10 years have expended vast amounts on research into learning, in particular reading, and this is where we currently stand.

There are all sorts of other learning theories on offer in independent and free schools (Montessori, Steiner etc) but the research seems to back ZPD, and that is how the curriculum is set up.

However, the current government is about to implement a new curriculum, and it’s one that doesn’t actually have an evidence-based backing, it is going to be a more didactic lesson based and everything is going to change. The current government is in love with teaching in China and Singapore, which is, from my understanding, very old fashioned. The change is purely political.

[JohnT]

I don’t know enough about the ZPD to tell whether that was in support for or against my statement.

[Szlater]

@JohnT

I don’t know enough about the ZPD to tell whether that was in support for or against my statement.

Its in support of you. You’re absolutely right that not all the concepts that a child needs to know can be learned through play.

Although I would argue that what play is in education differs considerably from what we mean when we use the word in common parlance… But I did not train in early years and foundation, so I am not getting involved in that debate.

I trained in 7-11 (although I am actually qualified to teach 5-18) and In 7-11 (and up to 18 too) we use activity based learning, children are given very brief periods of instruction and then provided with activities that help them discover, learn and practice new skills and concepts.
I loved the way you explained your child’s job… Genius.