# School shooter dies in car wreck. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 29, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824 "2019-07-29T17:43:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![eschrodinger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschrodinger/32/122_2.png) [@eschrodinger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschrodinger)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/61 "2019-07-30T18:12:05Z")
Even the US Supreme Court recognizes that minors’ brains have not fully developed, and that it is wrong to allow categorical, mandated penalties even for the most serious crimes. So, it is not legal to sentence a person to death for a crime committed as a minor, nor to sentence them to life without any possibility of parole for a single crime. So, too bad I guess, for those who want the death penalty for an 11-year-old. (Really? Sincerely?) ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/62 "2019-07-30T18:45:11Z")
> [@Dongyang2016](#): > > If he is like that at eleven, what would he be like as an adult? Don’t you think that would depend a great deal on how he is raised/treated for the next 8~10 years? ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/63 "2019-07-30T19:22:46Z")
> [@Biotop](#): > > This attitude frightens me. Eleven year olds do not know what they are doing. These two (Johnson was 13 at the time) gave a really good impersonation of it then. I’m not sure that everyone here is fully aware of how this school shooting differed from others. This wasn’t a case of an angry kid going to school and shooting everyone he came across during his rage. These two set up a firing position in the woods near the playground adjacent to the school. This playground was the assembly point during fire drills. Moreover, during a fire drill, some or all of the classroom doors would be automatically locked from the outside (though they could be opened from the inside.) Both boys were students there and relied upon the emergency procedures to set up their ambush. The net effect was that the student body and teachers would be trapped in a killing ground during the fire alarm. Which is what happened, until teachers were able to open up the school auditorium as a shelter from Golden and Johnson’s fire. Further, Johnson and Golden didn’t stop shooting, or turn themselves in when they realized the horror of their actions. They ran. They intended to escape and, in the words of Golden, "he had “a lot of killing to do” and suggested to them that they would know the next day whether they were destined to live or die. (At the wiki) This strikes me as a hell of a lot more sophisticated and premeditated than most school shootings. I doubt many adults would have thought of doing it the way they did. I’m comfortable with not ever allowing back into society anyone capable of conceiving and executing such an evil, depraved plan. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/64 "2019-07-30T20:01:34Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > When I was eleven I used to hide in the weeds beside the road and throw rocks at cars with some of my friends. The holy grail was getting a good windshield shot. By the time I was 16 I was horrified at that thought. I don’t equate throwing rocks at cars with committing murder. So your experience is irrelevant to what I said. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/65 "2019-07-30T20:08:01Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I don’t equate throwing rocks at cars with committing murder. So your experience is irrelevant to what I said. [These teens](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/michigan-judge-rejects-juvenile-sentencing-for-teens-in-highway-rock-toss-death/) are being tried for murder, for throwing rocks at cars. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/66 "2019-07-30T20:12:26Z")
Not much is known after he left incarceration. His juvenile records were sealed and authorities weren’t able to monitor Andrew Golden after his release. He simply disappeared from public sight. The ABC article said he applied for a concealed carry permit. That raised concerns and was denied. Apparently he was legally allowed to own guns because he wasn’t a adult felon. No one knows which weapons he kept at home. That’s a concern, IMHO given his use of them before. I just can’t shed any tears at Golden’s death. There’s too many survivors of that shooting struggling to cope every day. Ten people wounded and their lives will never be entirely whole. It is a tragedy that the other driver (at fault) died and his family was injured. I’ve been looking for updates on the accident and haven’t found anything. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/67 "2019-07-30T20:49:51Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > [These teens](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/michigan-judge-rejects-juvenile-sentencing-for-teens-in-highway-rock-toss-death/) are being tried for murder, for throwing rocks at cars. Mic drop. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/68 "2019-07-30T21:01:20Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The answer seems obvious to me as a moral being: it would be wrong for me to hold an 11 year old with a messed up brain to the same standards as an adult. Agreed, but by the same token there is no guarantee that the brain will be “fixed” just because he turned 21. Why let a juvenile go just because they reached that milestone? How to handle juvenile criminals justly, to simultaneously be fair to them and to society at large, is a very complicated issue. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/69 "2019-07-30T22:07:17Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > [These teens](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/michigan-judge-rejects-juvenile-sentencing-for-teens-in-highway-rock-toss-death/) are being tried for murder, for throwing rocks at cars. At the time ages 14, 15, 15, and 16. That’s a lot more interesting as an academic question, and still there’s even a world of difference between 11 & 15. I wouldn’t personally want to try them as adults, but I’d be a lot less inclined to get on my high horse about someone who did. > [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > Agreed, but by the same token there is no guarantee that the brain will be “fixed” just because he turned 21. Why let a juvenile go just because they reached that milestone? How to handle juvenile criminals justly, to simultaneously be fair to them and to society at large, is a very complicated issue. Case in point–Johnson was released at 21 and proceeded to be a bad guy. It’s a crap shoot and I have a hard time with that. Pure speculation, but it kind of makes me wonder if the shootout was one kid’s persistent fantasy, and the other followed along. I wish I was smarter, I’ve always wondered what made killers tick. > [@aceplace57](#): > > I just can’t shed any tears at Golden’s death. There’s too many survivors of that shooting struggling to cope every day. Ten people wounded and their lives will never be entirely whole. I think this really gets at the heart of my opposition to capital punishment. If you execute someone, they’re gone and the people they hurt are either still gone or still hurting. Nothing gets undone, but you have increased the misery of the people who loved the executed, and they likely didn’t deserve the extra hurt. Golden’s wife and child got to see him dead, and IME what they saw was pretty grisly. And justice? Golden didn’t likely feel a thing, his lights just went off. And Justice? He was tried, sentenced, and released according to the laws in effect when he did his crimes–to want otherwise is to want ex post facto legislation, which is one of the principles rejected by the founders of this nation. They didn’t flip a coin on that one, they wanted to keep expedience and emotion from interfering with larger legal principles. That’s more important than individuals. See also: presumption of innocence. People get hurt. I’ve been hurt, and I didn’t like it and I harbored angry feelings toward the person who took my friend from me. But causing more hurt doesn’t undo anything. I’m sorry for monopolizing the thread. I’ll go now. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2019, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/70 "2019-07-30T22:50:00Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > At the time ages 14, 15, 15, and 16. That post was a response to a post that said “I don’t equate throwing rocks at cars with committing murder.” I showed that throwing rocks at cars _is_ murder. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/71 "2019-07-31T03:19:02Z")
> [@scr4](#): > > [These teens](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/michigan-judge-rejects-juvenile-sentencing-for-teens-in-highway-rock-toss-death/) are being tried for murder, for throwing rocks at cars. Nonsense. They’re being tried for murder, for killing somebody. > [@scr4](#): > > That post was a response to a post that said “I don’t equate throwing rocks at cars with committing murder.” I showed that throwing rocks at cars _is_ murder. No, throwing rocks is throwing rocks. And murder is murder. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/72 "2019-07-31T03:26:32Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > People get hurt. I’ve been hurt, and I didn’t like it and I harbored angry feelings toward the person who took my friend from me. But causing more hurt doesn’t undo anything. By that logic, we shouldn’t arrest anyone for murder. You can’t undo the murder and bring the victim back to life, so there’s no point to it. I think that’s wrong. There should be consequences for your actions, even if the consequences can’t undo the action. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/73 "2019-07-31T11:12:44Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > By that logic, we shouldn’t arrest anyone for murder. You can’t undo the murder and bring the victim back to life, so there’s no point to it. Don’t pretend you don’t know the difference between sequestering a potential threat to society, and murdering a prisoner. You’re just not that dumb. ---
**Author:** ![Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b2d939/32.png) [@Go\_Arachnid\_Laser\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Go_Arachnid_Laser_1)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/74 "2019-07-31T11:56:25Z")
Since I assume the 13-year old was the leader and instigator, and the 11-year old was just a really, really dumb 11-year old, the wrong guy died here. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/75 "2019-07-31T13:35:17Z")
How long should an eleven year old who intentionally commits multiple murders be locked up for? 10 years? 20 years? Life? If someone wants a person dead and pursues a minor to do it, who should be locked up. One such case is the weird story of [David & Cinnamon Brown](https://tvcrimesky.com/2019/07/19/linda-bailey-brown-cinnamon-brown-where-is-if-you-really-loved-me-love-lies-and-murder-killer-today-now/1666) ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/76 "2019-07-31T14:29:50Z")
I recall a local talk show host was fired because he sat at his microphone the next day and said, “I feel like I’ve been shot by an eleven year old.” The guy had an unusual personality. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/77 "2019-07-31T14:53:23Z")
As a teacher for 10 years, I worked with a lot of children, and I have to say that anyone under the age of 18 shouldn’t automatically be considered a “juvenile”. In fact, as far as I’m concerned, anyone older than 12 should be tried as an adult. However, I also feel that 12 and under should never be tried as an adult. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/78 "2019-07-31T18:12:33Z")
One thing I’m curious about is the potential psychological research value in holding these two juveniles for 8 and 10 years. I assume they weren’t just thrown into cells and forgotten. Wouldn’t therapists and psychologists and other experts have had the chance to question them and subject them to various tests over the years? And wouldn’t this research potentially shed some light on just what the fuck people are thinking when they plan atrocities like this? Especially with two juveniles, I’d think the learnings would be pretty valuable. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/79 "2019-07-31T18:45:54Z")
I was wondering if they had received vocational education in prison. Yes, that was sarcastic. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2019, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824/80 "2019-07-31T19:41:29Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I was wondering if they had received vocational education in prison. > Yes, that was sarcastic. > :dubious: Why though? If they aren’t going to be killed, and they aren’t going to be locked up for life, then eventually they will be released. If they’re going to be released, and Nemo could shed some light on recidivism and job training, I’d think, then isn’t it a good idea to do everything practical to help them not reoffend? Which is where vocational training comes in. Help them achieve some sort of contributing life outside prison. Or ignore the problem and be shocked when they commit crimes to support themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooter-dies-in-car-wreck/837824.md?page=3)