# School shooters- any documented cases any were really bullied? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 18, 2007, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708 "2007-04-18T23:56:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2007, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708/1 "2007-04-18T23:56:23Z")
Cho’s ranting video is playing on NBC & MSNBC. Now, from his writings, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he was sexually abused as a child. He’s not ranting about that but about alleged recent persecutors. No evidence has yet emerged that any of his college classmates bothered him but lots of evidence in the other direction. Which makes me wonder- Klebold & Harris, and other school shooters: Is there any evidence that any of them were targets of bullying or harassment? It’s become a meme that they were but I’ve yet to hear of any specific incidents. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708/2 "2007-04-19T00:25:48Z")
I remember while watching the Columbine shootings and their aftermath, CNN had patched into a local station, who was on the phone with a student from the school. He said it was the Trenchcoat Mafia (first time I had heard the phrase). When the reporter latched on this, and started asking if it was a gang, the guy on the phone said yes, “A gang of homosexuals” while starting to laugh. He was cut off, and they didn’t go back to him. Having been the victim of bulliying in my own youth, and having been part of what many would consider to be a Trench Coat Mafia, I have no doubt in my mind that Klebold and Harris were bullied. Sadly, it fueled their anger, and they did the worst possible thing. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708/3 "2007-04-19T00:29:06Z")
[QUOTE=Tristan] Having been the victim of bulliying in my own youth, and having been part of what many would consider to be a Trench Coat Mafia, I have no doubt in my mind that Klebold and Harris were bullied. [/QUOTE] That doesn’t really serve as any sort of evidence. I know it’s easy to assume all high schools are the same, but they really aren’t. Not all high schools have the same dynamics and you don’t actually know Harris and Klebold were bullied unless you’ve got some evidence. Your own experience doesn’t count unless you went to Columbine with them. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708/4 "2007-04-19T00:31:57Z")
[QUOTE=Tristan] I remember while watching the Columbine shootings and their aftermath, CNN had patched into a local station, who was on the phone with a student from the school. He said it was the Trenchcoat Mafia (first time I had heard the phrase). When the reporter latched on this, and started asking if it was a gang, the guy on the phone said yes, “A gang of homosexuals” while starting to laugh. He was cut off, and they didn’t go back to him. Having been the victim of bulliying in my own youth, and having been part of what many would consider to be a Trench Coat Mafia, I have no doubt in my mind that Klebold and Harris were bullied. [/QUOTE] I’m sorry you were bullied, but it’s my understanding that the “bullying hypothesis” has been pretty much debunked concerning [The Colulmbine Massacre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre). > [@](#): > > In the weeks following the shootings, media reports about two students who portrayed them as part of a “goth cult” and outcast “nerds”. Later, such characterizations were found to be untrue as both Harris and Klebold are documented to have had a close circle of friends and a wider informal social group; by no means were they isolated. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708/5 "2007-04-19T00:33:57Z")
I know a lot of people used Columbine as an excuse for bullying and scapegoating, but in general people who commit these very rare rampage killings had a lot more wrong with them than just some bullying. Lots and lots and lots of people get bullied all the time, without any large massacres. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708/6 "2007-04-19T00:37:14Z")
[This](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heath_High_School_shooting) poorly cited Wikipedia article claims school shooter Michael Carneal was the victim of bullying. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708/7 "2007-04-19T00:38:03Z")
One of the callers in to one of the major news networks (I’ve forgotten now) on the day the Virginia Tech shooting happened was a stepfather of one of a boy killed at Columbine. He actually touched on the issue of bullying, and he said that he can’t give as many details as he would like because him and the other families are under a gag order when it comes to something they heard either in court or some sort of deposition (not sure which)–but that the issue of bullying of Harris and Klebold was way over blown by the media. The “Trench coat Mafia” received a lot of bad press following the Columbine shootings, mainly because of inaccurate information. What apparently was the real case was, the Trench coat Mafia was just a group of gaming geeks who all decided to wear trench coats after one of their parents bought one of them a trench coat for Christmas. Harris and Klebold were friends of _one_ member of the clique, but were not really known to the rest of the clique, and in fact most of the members of the " Trench coat Mafia" had graduated by the time of the shootings. It’s entirely possible, being “geeks” that the TM people were picked on , but Harris and Klebold weren’t members of the TM. Furthermore, Harris and Klebold don’t really come off, from what I know of the, as the type of kids who would get picked on. They come off as the type of kids you’d stay away from because you were afraid of them. Harris’ journal espoused an admiration for Nazism and genocide. Harris also spoke with a USMC recruiter and wanted to join the USMC. That’s not really traditional “nerd” behavior. They had also both been disciplined by the juvenile justice system for breaking into cars, theft, vandalism, and et cetera. They even had to take anger management classes. I remember High School, and these guys don’t sound like the “nerdy kids who got picked on” at least not as they were at my HS. They sound like the kids who carried switch blades to school and no one, even the jocks, messed with on a regular basis. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708/8 "2007-04-19T00:55:47Z")
I think it’s also important to differentiate between those two guys (who were, what, 16?) and Cho, who was a 23-year-old adult. He could just as easily have been an office shooter as a “school shooter”. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708/9 "2007-04-19T00:56:45Z")
Everybody was bullied a bit growing up. At least males. There was always someone a couple years older who took pleasure in torturing younger classmen. Therefore we all should be out shooting people. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708/10 "2007-04-19T01:27:25Z")
“The Trenchcoat Mafia! “No one would play with us! We had no friends, the trenchcoat mafia…” Hey I saw the yearbook picture, it was six of 'em! I ain’t have six friends in high school. I don’t got six friends now! Shit that’s three-on-three with a half court.” -Chris Rock ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708/11 "2007-04-19T22:41:59Z")
In truth it is not so much the bullying,. It is their reaction to it. If everyone who got bullied shot someone the cops would be very busy.Most shrug it off and go on with life,muttering asshole under their breath. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708/12 "2007-04-19T22:49:07Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Everybody was bullied a bit growing up. **At least males.** There was always someone a couple years older who took pleasure in torturing younger classmen. Therefore we all should be out shooting people. (bolding added) [/QUOTE] If my vast study of reality television has taught me anything, it’s that high-school females have bullying down to an art form. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708/13 "2007-04-19T22:58:40Z")
Look I don’t really think it is bullying, it is how someone reacts to bullying. A normal person with no mental illness or mental issues can do the sluffing off and the muttering as **Gonzomax** has suggested. People who are mentally ill or otherwise disturbed react to all sorts of situations in odd and sometimes distructive ways. Maybe that is more important to look at here. All guys go through bullying when they grow up. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708/14 "2007-04-19T23:11:31Z")
CNN had an article about how the shooter was treated in high school and earlier and it sounds like he was picked on by some people. However, and this is a huge however, it obviously doesn’t “excuse” what he did, and I think that there may be some confusion of cause and effect as well - isn’t it possible that the kid who is already carrying around a lot of mental baggage and has a mind that’s shortcircuited is going to act “odd” and so be the subject of bullying behavior? Getting picked on doesn’t help, but it isn’t automatically the root cause. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2007, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708/15 "2007-04-19T23:26:51Z")
[QUOTE=Translucent Daydream] Look I don’t really think it is bullying, it is how someone reacts to bullying. A normal person with no mental illness or mental issues can do the sluffing off and the muttering as **Gonzomax** has suggested. People who are mentally ill or otherwise disturbed react to all sorts of situations in odd and sometimes distructive ways. Maybe that is more important to look at here. All guys go through bullying when they grow up. [/QUOTE] Then it is not the bullying . It is mental illness. ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708/16 "2007-04-20T00:10:54Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax] Then it is not the bullying . It is mental illness. [/QUOTE] Right. I mean I don’t know if the most important thing to be looking at is “was this person bullied? It must be because he was bullied.” Well maybe the bullying was a catalyst or something, but someone that becomes a school or work or public shooter has much more underlying serious problems than being bullied in school/work/public. MHO and all. And from experience in working in higher ed. ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2007, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708/17 "2007-04-20T00:25:34Z")
Upon further review, aided by the wonderful threads provided here along with other such things, I must recant my statement of earlier. Harris and Klebold where Dbags, who may have been picked on, but certainly weren’t the downtrodden geeks of a John Hughes movie gone horribly wrong as I had thought. I also feel it necessary, after re-reading what I had written, to clarify a point: I do not, in any way shape or form, condone what was done by those two (or our most recent shooter in VA). To take a human life is in most instances reprehensible, and to do it in such a fashion as they have chosen marks them, in my mind at least, as cowardly scum. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2007, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708/18 "2007-04-21T19:11:51Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I’m sorry you were bullied, but it’s my understanding that the “bullying hypothesis” has been pretty much debunked concerning [The Colulmbine Massacre](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre). [/QUOTE] Not true. From your own cite: [http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/1003col4.shtml](http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/1003col4.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 21, 2007, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-any-documented-cases-any-were-really-bullied/400708/19 "2007-04-21T19:16:20Z")
[QUOTE=Honesty] Not true. From your own cite: [http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/1003col4.shtml](http://denver.rockymountainnews.com/shooting/1003col4.shtml) [/QUOTE] Nothing in this article indicates Harris and Klebold were the targets of bullying. A few people make general claims that there was lots of bullying; nobody says those two individuals were bullied.