# School shooters are my heroes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 9, 2001, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350 "2001-03-09T15:07:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/21 "2001-03-09T17:46:23Z")
Jeremy: So what has happened that makes you feel this way? ---
**Author:** ![Jeremy\_s\_Evil\_Twin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Jeremy\_s\_Evil\_Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeremy_s_Evil_Twin)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/22 "2001-03-09T18:56:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson: \* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* > > However it saddens me to see that nobody else bothers to take into account this kid’s perspective, they only want to sweep him under the rug. They blame stuff like rock music and violent computer games. > > Actually there’s been a lot of talk about how some of these kids were picked on. If you weren’t so wrapped up in yourself perhaps you would have noticed. In the case of the Columbine shooters I think they reveled in being picked on in some ways. \*\* Yes, they are actually edging closer to the root problem, finally. I’m impressed that all the discussion about this San Diego kid has been about the social situation he was in, not what kind of music he listened to. I don’t know what to say about Harris & Klebold, they were one of a kind (or two of a kind, rather.) > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* > > They install metal detectors at schools (what’s next, strip searches?) and institute draconian rules – my own brother got suspended for wearing a coat that wasn’t a black trenchcoat but LOOKED like a black trenchcoat…how much more stupid can you get?? > > Metal detectors are hardly draconion measures. Though I’ll have to agree with you on the trenchcoat part. \*\* Yes but going to school shouldn’t feel like walking into an airport or a courthouse, it gives the impression that you are walking into a possibly dangerous area. Which is true these days, I suppose. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* > > Here’s the thing. This kid wanted attention. He didn’t get it. He tried harder. Still, nobody paid attention to him. He finally said, “ALRIGHT F\*\*KERS, PAY ATTENTIN TO THIS!!” And the powers that be said, “Oh, you need help! Let’s PUT YOU IN JAIL FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE!” Squashed like a bug. > > Uh huh. So I guess shooting people is just a form of self expression these days. \*\* Considering how the media plays up each event…yes, yes it is. Used to be, if you shot up the place where you work, it’s national headlines for days. Now you might not get more than a blurb in the local paper. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* > > What REALLY needs to be done is to take a close and hard look at the social pecking order in schools which praise sports and such activities over more scholastic activities, and to crack down HARD on hazing and teasing. > > How are you going to make students praise sports less then academics? In fact what does that have to do with some students being picked on more then others? I understand that some schools had problem with the jocks but in other schools it isn’t such a big problem. Yet every school has their own little pecking order. \*\* It seems to be universal that the jocks are the “cool” kids and the A-students are “nerds”. Maybe this is endemic to human nature and can’t be changed no matter how hard we try. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* > > There have been enough school shootings recently to generate a profile on these individuals, and guess what, there IS no general profile. > > Make up your mind. If you claim these kids are all doing it because they’re picked on then I’d say that’s a decent basis for a general profile. \*\* No, what I mean is that when it comes to social status, quality of home life, hobbies, rich or poor, etc., they are all over the map. The only _consistent_ indicator is being teased, and since such a high percentage of ALL kids are teased on a daily basis, it’s basically worthless as a pre-indicator. It’s not like serial killers who are nearly all 25-35, white, male, middle to upper class, sociable, etc. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* > > The kids range from popular to outcast, good family to abusive, etc. Except for one thing. 80% of them were teased. Hmm, what are we to make of this? > > You mean the popular kids are teased so much they decide to murder? How many people here were teased as kids? How many killed their classmates? \*\* Not as many as they should. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\* > > I do not mourn for the lives lost or the families left behind. I believe that the hell that kid had to endure before he finally took a stand (to say nothing of the hell he will endure in jail) is worth more than a thousand lives. > > > > J.E.T. > > You don’t know what hell he had to endure. You don’t know how badly he was picked on or whether or not he himself was a jerk. I knew some kids in high school that seemed to go out of their way to be picked on. I suppose this was just some cry for help or attention of some kind. \*\* I don’t know the _specific_ details, of course, but it’s hard for me to imagine any school life worse than what I went through, which is enough for me to empathize with his situation. I can’t figure out how you think ANYONE would go out of their way to be picked on, it makes no sense to me. I do remember kids who were always acting up and getting into trouble, possibly on purpose, but intentionally setting yourself up for constant, daily humiliation and psychological torture?? Get real. > [@](#): > > \*\* > If you can’t feel any sympathy for the families that lost children then you’ve got a hole in your soul I don’t know how to fix. Personally I think that kid deserves to go to a state-pound me in the ass-prison for what he did. > > Marc \*\* Quite a distinction you are making there, saying that we should grieve for the families (whose children may have been the ones who teased him daily, and are therefore partly culpable) while the kid who suffered endlessly and felt he had no other recourse except to act out in a VERY extreme way should be utterly dismissed and in fact submitted to further humiliation and torture. Don’t lecture me on feeling empathy for the “victims” when you don’t even recognize that the shooter was perhaps an even bigger victim himself. J.E.T. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/23 "2001-03-09T19:02:04Z")
::Publicly walking away from this thread, and hoping JET lives in another state:: ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/24 "2001-03-09T19:10:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jeremy’s Evil Twin \* > \*\* > > I’ll make it short. In my opinion, Death is preferrable to Life in almost all situations. When someone dies, they are free from the pain and suffering that Life brings. And as for those few who actually DO benefit from Life, well…call it revenge. > > Speaking hypothetically, if I were to kill somebody, I would in fact be doing them a favor. I do not wish Death on anyone who DEEPLY wounds me, I wish a long life of constant pain and suffering.\*\* You know, I was going to say that I kind of empathized with school shooters to some extent, but after reading this, I think I’ll try to distance myself from JET’s POV as much as possible. JET–we’re not all gonna get subpoenaed in a few weeks, are we? Keep your finger off the trigger, and have a coke and a smile. ---
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/25 "2001-03-09T19:11:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jeremy’s Evil Twin \* > I’ll make it short. In my opinion, Death is preferrable to Life in almost all situations. When someone dies, they are free from the pain and suffering that Life brings… And you’re still sitting at your keyboard typing away rather than blowing your head off because… Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Jeremy\_s\_Evil\_Twin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Jeremy\_s\_Evil\_Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeremy_s_Evil_Twin)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/26 "2001-03-09T19:11:23Z")
First, to everyone who suggested I get psychological counseling…interesting idea, I’ll bring it up when I see my shrink tomorrow. 😃 Duck Duck Goose: Yes, the people who teased him are at least partly at fault. There’s no way of knowing, of course, if he would have done the same thing if he had never been teased at all. But I’ll bet it had a helluva lot more influence than KMFDM or Quake. dantheman: Regarding your last paragraph, we’re in the same boat and thank you for at least corroborating the fact that school teasing is NOT a wound that heals easily. msmith537: For your sake and the sake of others, I am going to ignore your post outright. Consider yourself lucky. Scylla: I was born. J.E.T. (P.S.: For the record, my psychiatrist does not believe that I am a true sociopath, I just pretend to be one. I think he’s wrong.) ---
**Author:** ![Mikahw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Mikahw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikahw)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/27 "2001-03-09T19:44:59Z")
If Death is preferrable to Life, then why are you still alive? ---
**Author:** ![tsunamisurfer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a698b9/32.png) [@tsunamisurfer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tsunamisurfer)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/28 "2001-03-09T19:54:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SexyWriter \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Jeremy’s Evil Twin \* > > \*\*In other words, if 10 people are happy and you are miserable, it’s justifyable to commit an act that makes THOSE 10 people miserable as well… J.E.T. \*\* > > You know, this truly exhibits characteristics of REAL sociopathology. As much as you see sensationalized stories about psychopaths on television, this is exceedingly rare in actuality. In every generation, there are only a handful of people with JET’s lack of remorse or regard for life on the planet. > > I’m seriously creeped out by this conversation. > > -L \*\* As usual, nice insights, SW. But I would speculate that sociopathy (not “sociopathology”) is not “exceedingly rare,” but instead can be found among countless thousands of individuals with personality/dissociative disorders so severe that they would have no compunction about maiming, torturing, or killing anyone who gets in their way. The miracle is that most of these walking powder kegs are able to hold themselves together as long as they do, probably as a means of self-preservation in their bleak, deadened world. Our prison system (and graveyards) contains many, but others are on the loose. Reacting with expressions of revulsion to JET’s vengeful fantasies is precisely what he revels in it, feeds off it, lives for. Your horror empowers him, reifying his narcissistic delusions and emboldening him to consider acting on them, which, of course, would culminate in his ultimate fantasy: international celebrity, courtesy of the media. He doesn’t want death–at least not his own. He wants attention, an issue his psychiatrist must battle with constantly. (yawn) Sorry, JET, but you really bore me. See ya when you get another user I.D. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/29 "2001-03-09T20:09:41Z")
\*::: tap tap tap ::: \* Is this thing on? JEREMY, I’d appreciate a response to my question if you have a free moment. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/30 "2001-03-09T20:13:36Z")
Is this something that you’re thinking of actually doing, Are you planning this out, do you intend to follow through? Example: “At 3:25 I will go and kick that bastard in the teeth.” Or, Is this more in the nature of a hypothetical? Example: “Wouldn’t it be nice if I could get back at that smug bastard by kicking him in the teeth?” ---
**Author:** ![Blackclaw](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e68b1a/32.png) [@Blackclaw](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackclaw)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/31 "2001-03-09T20:19:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jeremy’s Evil Twin \* > > I’ll make it short. In my opinion, Death is preferrable to Life in almost all situations. When someone dies, they are free from the pain and suffering that Life brings. And as for those few who actually DO benefit from Life, well…call it revenge. > > Speaking hypothetically, if I were to kill somebody, I would in fact be doing them a favor. I do not wish Death on anyone who DEEPLY wounds me, I wish a long life of constant pain and suffering. (Being a quadrapelegic comes to mind.) > > J.E.T. \*\* What a second. What did I do to you? I benefit from life but my happiness did not come at your expense. I stood up for the outcasts at my school. I gathered together all the rejects and anyone that messed with one of us had to mess with all of us. Had I known you I would have taken you in. And you offer me death? Pain and suffering is not all life brings. It can also bring joy and happiness. I’m sorry that you have not experienced the good part of life. You seem to have let the bullies win. But why become one of them? Why add to the pain and suffering of life. Your position makes no sense. Pain and suffering passes. Death comes soon enough. Enjoy life and let others do the same. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/32 "2001-03-09T20:27:38Z")
Ah, Tsunamisurfer nailed it. Reminds me of this Onion article: “Marylin Manson Now Going Door-To-Door Trying to Shock People” [http://www.theonion.com/onion3703/marilyn\_mason.html](http://www.theonion.com/onion3703/marilyn_mason.html) JET, do us a favor and pay more attention to those voices in your head telling you to kill yourself, OK? ---
**Author:** ![justwannano](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ab992/32.png) [@justwannano](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/justwannano)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/33 "2001-03-09T20:35:53Z")
Following Freedoms lead. Munbling about reasoning with someone that feels that sorry for himself. ---
**Author:** ![YWalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/6f9a4e/32.png) [@YWalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YWalker)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/34 "2001-03-09T22:12:04Z")
It must be morbid curiosity that made me even open this thread. I was sickened by the title, and sickened even more by the OP. I can’t decide if you really believe this stuff, JET, or you’re just having some sick fun yanking our chains by starting off your posting career with a really offensive and insensitive series of statements. That said, I can agree that some really horrendous stuff is allowed to happen in our schools at times. Unfortunately, the schools are staffed by humans, like anywhere else. You will find some incredibly empathetic, caring people, as well as some raging jerks, and everyone in between. Consequently, harassment is frequently allowed to go by the boards, particularly if the victim doesn’t know who to go to when it happens. (“It’s just words. Shake it off. Get over it. I can’t do anything about it if I didn’t witness it, since it’s just your word against his, etc.”) Unfortunately, people just don’t get it. They continue to make fat jokes, nerd jokes, or other offensive comments to those outside the clique. They use the ability to put down others as a way to bolster their own poor self-esteem (usually because they have few merits upon which to build a self esteem.) They’re not being taught that being purposely hurtful and insensitive to others is not just being a jerk, but in this day and age it has become dangerous as well. What really scares the hell out of me, though, is that through all the reporting of these school shootings, we are creating a monster. The “school rage” thing is being identified as THE way to express teen angst or respond to harassment. It’s upped the ante. When a loner who has faced harassment for years has finally built up enough rage to seek revenge, it’s no longer enough to lash out directly at the attacker. Now anyone who has existed in the same community and allowed the bad people to attack the “victim” are deemed just as evil and deserving of revenge. If you can’t come up with a revenge response as impressive as the one at Columbine, then obviously that would mean that you are not giving the pain you suffered its just revenge. We must cause even more death and more carnage than the previous school tragedy in order to truly honor the pain we have suffered and to prove that it, indeed, was truly the worst. The fact is, though, that there is no humiliation vile enough to warrant these massive assaults like this. Random shootings and bombings harm innocent people, and the damage done to them and the people who love them is a hell of a lot more permanent and traumatic than anything which could have been done to the perpetrator. Speaking as a mother, I can imagine no hell on earth worth than losing my child in one of these senseless outbursts of anger. JET, if you truly believe the things you said, I agree with many of the other posters and urge you to get help. Sounds as if you may be working on it already (possibly with someone who’s not much help…) Sometimes you have to work to find someone who can understand a problem and be of any assistance. If, on the other hand, you’re just yanking our chains… please go away. [Mods: If you find that last line offensive, please delete.] ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/35 "2001-03-09T22:19:11Z")
…hmmm “Jeremy’s Evil Twin”… J.E.T …kinda close to J.D.T. \ I get a similar creepy feeling from both posters… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/36 "2001-03-09T22:49:59Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Jeremy’s Evil Twin \* > I’ll make it short. In my opinion, Death is preferrable to Life in almost all situations. When someone dies, they are free from the pain and suffering that Life brings. And as for those few who actually DO benefit from Life, well…call it revenge._\* Then why don’t you kill yourself immediately? I notice that practically no one who thinks that death is preferable to life in the abstract ever seems to have the courage of their convictions. Seriously, man. I suffered through high school pretty much as much as an eccentric queer geek can suffer, and I suffer from depression on a fairly regular basis, but at my lowest depths I’ve never stooped to the sheer absence of ethical consideration you seem to be advocating. Nihilism is an unworkable philosophy, folks. ---
**Author:** ![ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ChoosyChipsAndCeilingWhacks)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/37 "2001-03-09T23:02:28Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by tsunamisurfer \* \*\* > [@](#): > > Reacting with expressions of revulsion to JET’s vengeful fantasies is precisely what he revels in\*\* I bow to your wisdom and clear sense of character. Thank you for informing me. Do you really think psychopathy is THAT common? I DO wish people would stop making flippant remarks about suicide. -L ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/38 "2001-03-09T23:04:15Z")
Jeremy’s Evil Twin wrote: > [@](#): > > In my opinion, Death is preferrable to Life in almost all situations. When someone dies, they are free from the pain and suffering that Life brings. Take my word for it, as someone who has actually attempted suicide, that death is positively unquestionably **NOT** preferable to life. Not, even, to a painful life. I stared death right in the face, and I quickly came to understand that death stinks. It’s not a “release” from pain or suffering, it’s absolute complete and total nothingness. When you’re alive, you experience relief from pain or suffering as a “good” feeling. Thus you might think, consciously or unconsciously, that death will give you this same feeling of “relief.” But it won’t. It can’t. When you’re dead, you don’t **have** feelings, good **or** bad. You aren’t aware that you even **could** have feelings. You’re not even aware that you’re dead. Because you’re **dead**. It’s like being knocked unconscious, except you never ever wake up. I’d say it was like being immersed in total blackness forever, except you won’t even be around to be **aware** of the blackness. 'Cause you’ll be dead. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/39 "2001-03-09T23:07:11Z")
I will not deny that there were times in school I wished I had an UNLOADED gun to SCARE people away from picking on me, but never did I want to kill someone. It was more I wanted to scare them away-like if I had telekinetic powers like Carrie, I could suspend my bullies from the ceiling, freak them out, drop them unharmed, and they’d leave me alone. I usually would witness instant karma sometimes-the girl who made my freshman year a living hell was being reduced to tears because of people saying nasty things about HER our senior year. I can’t say I didn’t relish the thought. It is one thing to empathize with people who feel so tormented by the cruelty that is high school society. It is quite another to applaud these people when they turn around and kill. Time will work out its own revenge. It’s not up to us. My plan is more to move on and make MY life a success, as the best revenge. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2001, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350/40 "2001-03-09T23:09:13Z")
why in the world are so many otherwise respected folks posting suggestions that the OP do away with himself? Either this person seriously needs help, or is seriously bored and needs a new hobby. Either scenario makes those suggestions poor ideas. Back to somewhat of the OP. IMHO The shooters in these school shootings should be held accountable for their actions. So should school officials etc. if they ignored/tolerated bullying behavior by students. However, bringing mass misery on other folks seems to me to be a very bad idea. understatemently speaking. **JET** if the remarks about a therapist are true, please step away from your computer and contact their emergency hotline now. thank you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-shooters-are-my-heroes/57350.md?page=3)