# School Vouchers **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 18, 2003, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-vouchers/182699 "2003-06-18T14:07:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-vouchers/182699/81 "2003-06-21T22:59:57Z")
> [@](#): > > I was a kid of a single mom, stayed up too late all the time and had undiagnosed ADHD. I managed to get through school without getting into trouble Didn’t get into drugs, didn’t smartmouth my teachers, didn’t bully other kids, etc. > > Like I said, is it too much to ask that students BEHAVE? Even if they’re shitty students? No, it’s not- or at least it shouldn’t be. But even well behaved students who can’t or won’t do the work will bring the school’s graduation rate and rate of passing standardized tests down. ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-vouchers/182699/82 "2003-06-22T00:09:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Debaser \* > \*\*Yes, **rjung** , but even if that scenario is true, so what? Woudn’t it be better to have a system that was actually successful in teaching the kids, even if it left a few behind? Indeed. The only problem is that you are describing the public education system rather than the voucher system. > [@](#): > > You seem to be suggesting that it’s better to have a system that doesn’t work for anyone than a system that works great but leaves some behind. No, YOU are the one who continues to make claims denied by the evidence at hand. No Voucher system has improved education. And none ever will. Because the problems that result in failing schools are either environmental, or simply a lack of funds. Vouchers simply don’t solve either of these problems. They are irrelevant to the first, and make the second worse, while subsidizing the rich. The fundamental assumption being made by the pro-voucher crowd is that schools fail because they don’t wish to succeed, and a monetary incentive like vouchers will help. But that simply isn’t true. Education is simply a not a ‘market’ where market forces rule, and competition can be used to weed the strong from the weak. If you thought about the nature of education even a little you would recognise that. A day, or even a year of education is not a commodity that you can shop for based on price and quality. Its difficult to even measure the quality of education in a way that is timely enough to be used to make buying decisions. The only way to use competition to keep prices down is to have education demand be elastic. But it isn’t at all elastic. Once a child is born, there is an absolute need for 12 years of education _minimum_. One can’t opt out or delay education because the price is too high. You HAVE to buy one year of education each year. One can’t switch schools from day to day or even year to year without damaging the quality of education by the mere act of moving. Not to mention the cost of forcing your child to make friends again. The inelasticity and lock-in effect pretty much doom the chances of competition reducing the cost of education. And That’s not even considering the possibility of a ClearChannel effect, where one education company buys out the competition so that they can raise prices and reduce quality in a given area. Anyone who tells you that private educators will make better use of education dollars is selling a load of bullshit. There simply isnt enough meaningful ‘market’ for that to happen. Instead Vouchers basically amount to a transfer of wealth from those who can’t afford private school NOW to those who can, and a minor shift of people from the one category to the other. One would call this selfish, but really. It isn’t even that. A truly informed selfish person would be committed to fixing the public schools by giving the resources they need to do their jobs properly. Only stupid short-term selfish people would prefer to see the public schools de-funded in favor of giving a better education to the minority of people who are on the edge of affording private school, and a handout to those that alread do. In the long term, the producivity of the USA as a whole (which mean the value of investments in the stock market) is stongly dependant on the quality of education in general. NOT the quality of elite education, but of the whole people. Those that can’t be educated to be productive citizens will instead become the criminal class. Because I can _gurantee_ you that they will not just cease to exist, even thought that’s exactly what you seem to be expecting. So, a **wise** , selfish person will do what it takes to make sure that the lowest common denominator of eductation is enough to make a productive citizen. Vouchers, when they have any net effect, do exactly the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-vouchers/182699/83 "2003-06-22T00:25:49Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Philly Style \* \*\*Uh, there are other factors as well, > [@](#): > > 1. Dedicated, non union teachers Private schools end up with more committed teachers BECAUSE OF THE SELECTIVENESS OF THE students. This is exactly why my mother and all of her associates chose to teach in a private school rather than a public one. She cites smaller classrooms and the ability to eject troublemakers as the reason for choosing to teach in private school. Unionization is completely irrelevant, It does make it hard to get rid of a lazy teacher, but they are quite rare in any case. And those with political connections to the church can be just as hard to get rid of in private schools. > [@](#): > > 1. Non-politicized management There is NOTHING more political than private school adminstration. > [@](#): > > 1. The affluence of families that can afford private schools Another way of saying self selection bias. > [@](#): > > 1. More stable home environments Due to selective recruitment. > [@](#): > > 2Don’t get me wrong, opposition to vouchers, at least here in Philly, is mainly a Union/Political thing. But there is much more involved then selective recruitment. The Catholic School system achieves the same goal as many private schools at a much lower cost per student. I’m tempted to call bullshit, but I’ll call for a cite instead. When you account for the fact that The Catholic Church subsidizes their schools, the cost per student is pretty much a wash where my mother teaches. Care to demonstrate that it’s really different in Philly? Or are you just assuming that the Catholic Church will still pick up the bill regardless of how many students there are? ---
**Author:** ![Philly\_Style](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/977dab/32.png) [@Philly\_Style](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philly_Style)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-vouchers/182699/84 "2003-06-22T01:50:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tejota \* > \*\* When you account for the fact that The Catholic Church subsidizes their schools, \*\* Instead, you cite the claim that the Church subsidizes the schools. I have two children Catholic High Schools that are not affiliated with a parish that charge us 100% of the cost. Also, the parishes support the Arch Diocese, not vice versa. One interesting statistic, Philadelphia Public school teacher are more likely then the general population to have their children in a private school. Wonder why? I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Philly\_Style](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/977dab/32.png) [@Philly\_Style](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philly_Style)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-vouchers/182699/85 "2003-06-22T01:54:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by doreen \* > \*\*originally posted by Philly Style > > But #2 , #6 and #3 as modified to “families that can afford and _are willing to pay for_ private schools” are **part** of being selective in their admissions and retention. “Selective” doesn’t have to be based on test scores and grades. > > Agreed. Still, if more could afford this, more would partake. > > #1 and #4 aren’t always true - certainly there are many dedicated public school teachers and there are unionized Catholic school teachers. The locations of Catholic schools and public schols may not be very different at all. > > Catholic teachers do not walk out in sympathy if another school strikes. Each school negotiates the contract for that school. > Don’t get me wrong - I have nothing against Catholic schools. But I know that my kids’ Catholic school would not have nearly the good results it has if the principal had to accept and retain _every_ child who lived within a specified boundary \*\* In this area kids get expelled from public schools as well. The worst go to special schools. Shouldn’t this raise the level of education at the rest? ---
**Author:** ![Philly\_Style](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/977dab/32.png) [@Philly\_Style](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philly_Style)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-vouchers/182699/86 "2003-06-22T02:00:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by doreen \* > \*\*In my NYC experience, that’s just not true. Perhaps most [but not nearly all] of the people who could afford private school would choose a private school over a zoned school. But nearly everyone (with the exception of those who find a religious education or a single sex school or the St Grottlesex sort of private school very important) would choose Stuyvesant or Brooklyn Tech over a private school, \*\* There are magnet schools and MG programs here in Philly as well. We also lowered the minimum passing grade to 60. As a result, the number of students hitting the 60 mark dropped. Once, during a particularly snowy winter, the teachers were asked to work 5 minutes extra each day. They said if this was imposed, they would strike. If the system worked, magnet schools would be meaningless. The fact they exist, speaks to the problem. ---
**Author:** ![Philly\_Style](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/977dab/32.png) [@Philly\_Style](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philly_Style)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-vouchers/182699/87 "2003-06-22T02:04:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*How about the mentally and physically handicapped children? \*\* Bad news here as well. My oldest child is mentally retarded. The Philadelphia Public school system, will as the law requires, offer her an education appropriate to her skill set. Unfortunately, they will change her diagnosis to fit into a program that they already support. Many of our friends who use this school system make a regular pilgrimage to the Court to sue the school district for “re-diagnosis” their child. Our friends have had the school lose their children, and neglect to report injuries. Once again, we turned to the Catholic School System. ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-vouchers/182699/88 "2003-06-22T02:40:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Philly Style \* > \*\*Instead, you cite the claim that the Church subsidizes the schools. I have two children Catholic High Schools that are not affiliated with a parish that charge us 100% of the cost. Also, the parishes support the Arch Diocese, not vice versa. > > One interesting statistic, Philadelphia Public school teacher are more likely then the general population to have their children in a private school. Wonder why? I don’t. \*\* I thought I made I clear that I know this because my mother works at a Catholic School. The Church owns quite a bit of land and buildings that the school uses at virtually no cost (they have to pay the electric bill). But I can’t cite this because the church/school finances are not a matter of public record. Which is basically my point. Anyone who says that a particular Catholic School is not subsidized either has access to non-public financial info, or they are talking out of their ass (or, most likely quoting someone else talking out the their ass). ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-vouchers/182699/89 "2003-06-22T03:39:20Z")
> [@](#): > > In this area kids get expelled from public schools as well. The worst go to special schools. Shouldn’t this raise the level of education at the rest? For what reasons do they get expelled or sent to special schools? Do they get sent there only for being violent or behavior problems ? Or do they also get sent there because their parents don’t care about the child’s education, or the because the child simply doesn’t do the assignments while not being a behavior problem ? My kids’ principal can expel a child whose parents won’t cooperate with the school, or a child who simply will not do the work while not being a behavior problem. Yes, if you sent every undesirable student to a special school it would raise the level of education as defined by test scores and graduation rates at the other schools. It wouldn’t necessarily improve the education provided though. Just the schools numbers -and it won’t improve the system’s numbers at all. I’ll try to explain with an example- I went to a public high school that looked terrible on paper- low graduation rate, low rates of passing standardized tests, lots of students below grade level in reading and math. I went there because my parents couldn’t afford a Catholic high school. I got a good education there ( high GPA in mostly honors and AP classes, high test scores, college scholarships) and so did my circle of friends and acquaintances. The fact that half of the class that we entered with simply put in their time (if they even bothered to do that) , learned nothing and many eventually dropped out, while the rest took longer than usual to graduate did not affect our education at all. _They_ didn’t get an education because they didn’t want one badly enough to work at it. Taking them out of my school and putting them in another school wouldn’t have improved my education a bit. I would have been in the same classes with the same students and teachers whether that half of the class was in my school or another. But having only 50% of students graduating on time makes a school look bad- no matter how good an education those 50% are getting. ---
**Author:** ![tastycorn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bcef8e/32.png) [@tastycorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tastycorn)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-vouchers/182699/90 "2003-06-22T04:26:52Z")
Ok, aside from “saving” a few select kids, what happens to the rest of the schools? Well, they become corporations, beholden solely to their shareholders. Suddenly, they need to make a profit. The bigger, the better. The voucher tests have yet to come up with a private school model that provides a really good education _and_ turns a profit. So, how do you make a school turn a profit? First, the school goes commercial. We are already seeing this in many schools that can’t make ends meet. Taco Bell, Pepsi, Channel One. Sponsorships can really help that bottom line. Second, you cut overhead. Fewer teachers, fewer after school programs, fewer athletic programs, fewer types of classes, higher student to teacher ratio, university style lecture halls with 500 students, etc. Third, you go big. A huge consolidated school is more likely to turn a profit then many smaller schools. Fourth, to fill up these huge schools, you need one thing, test scores. Extremely heavy focus on standardized testing to the exclusion of a well rounded education. I tasted some of this in a couple schools, and it isn’t pretty. No critical thinking, just memorization and regurgitation. Ok, now taking into account these for-profit schools have less money per student to work with (funds being diverted to the premium schools) it doesn’t look to me like the end result would be anywhere I would want to send my non-existent kids. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-vouchers/182699/91 "2003-06-22T04:58:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Which is basically my point. Anyone who says that a particular Catholic School is not subsidized either has access to non-public financial info, or they are talking out of their ass (or, most likely quoting someone else talking out the their ass). Not necessarily. I am assuming that your mother works at a parish school. Parishs often subsidize their schools to an extent, and the number is not always kept secret. I have more than once seen the amount of the subsidy that my parish gives to the school, although I don’t remember it. It was given to all of the parents during meetings to explain the tuition increases. Schools run by religious orders or which have no ties to the institutional church are another story (and they do exist). But **Philly Style** might not be quite right either when he says > [@](#): > > I have two children Catholic High Schools that are not affiliated with a parish that charge us 100% of the cost. . Unless the schools do no fundraising and receive no donations from alumni etc, you are not being charged 100% of the cost. As for this, > [@](#): > > The Catholic School system achieves the same goal as many private schools at a much lower cost per student We just don’t know. You can’t compare the average cost per student in public school with the tuition in private school.I have never seen a figure stating how much it costs a public school system to educate an average student. Only the average spending per child. I’m sure the 400 or so students at this school affected the average spending per child in NYC. > [@](#): > > Two years after it was established for violent or potentially violent students, Wildcat has had its share of feats and hurdles. Educators praise its successes in turning around some of the city’s most troubled students, yet fear that increasing enrollment will undermine the school’s effectiveness. Officials believe it is a model for dealing with troubled students, yet acknowledge that it carries a high price tag – about $60,000 per student, among the most expensive public educations in the city And it’s apparently not the most expensive public education in the city. After accounting for those students, and the disabled, and those who need special ed, and those for whom the city must pay tuition in private schools because no public school can provide an appropriate education (a coworkers daughter’s fees at a Massachusetts boarding school are being paid by the NYC Department of Education because the public schools can’t provide the services she needs) the cost of educating an average child in the NYC school system is probably much less than the $10,000 or so you get from dividing the budget by the number of students. Once you take out the services provided by public schools that are not typically provided by private schools ( such as transportation) the number will go down even more. And the cost of a private school education will almost always be more than the tuition- whether the extra money comes from fundraising, a church subsidy, or donations. My tuition last year was 3800 for two children- but the cost of attendance was $3000 per child. The other $2200 came from the fundraising and parish subsidy. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2003, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-vouchers/182699/92 "2003-06-22T08:26:36Z")
I can only conclude that **SnoopyFan** figures that, once the “riffraff” have been tossed out of the schools (public or otherwise), they disappear in a **poof** puff of smoke into an interdimensional pocket where they consume no resources and bother no one. Sorta like Felix The Cat’s magic bag, I suppose. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/school-vouchers/182699.md?page=4)