# "School's a stage, kids are playaz" - Can rap teach kids math, history & 'MacBeth'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358 "2003-06-03T13:42:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/21 "2003-06-03T15:30:49Z")
**December** There you go assuming again. > [@](#): > > holmes, the reason why Rap is racially divisive is that this approach will be used in black schools (I assume). Non-black schools will use different music. As numerous posters have stated, the majority of people that listen to RAP are middle class white kids. Why it is so beyond your scope to believe that some of those "non black "schools will be listening to the same music? Further, you refer to the code words ‘urban’ and ‘poor’, to infer ‘blackness’. You do know that majority of poor schools in this country (US) are white, just like the majority of welfare users are. Your comparsion of this and the Tuskegee Project, shows how little you understand the African American experience. Big surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/22 "2003-06-03T15:31:15Z")
Sorry for the screwed-up coding. I must have gone to an underprivileged school, because they didn’t teach us VB code. If a passing mod could do some repair work, I’d appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/23 "2003-06-03T15:51:43Z")
I’ll second that this isn’t new. _My mom_ had to analyze popular music as poetry (an exersize that turned her on to analysis as a whole, as it turns out). She analyzed Pink Floyd. The funny thing is, my mom was close to dropping out. But she made it and as I was growing up, she went to college. She used to tell me stories about this lesson (and similar ones) to show why she likes learning and why she continued school. When I went to school we did all kinds of activities like the ones described. I particularly remember having to write our own version of McBeth. We framed ours as about skateboard gangs. I’ll never forget how we interpreted “So fair and foul a day” as a reason for why they’d walk around with one pants leg up and one down. Framing these old stories in a way that was relevent to our lives really did help engage us and helped us understand the characters’ motivations. At other times, we set our lessons to popular music. I was a white punk rocker in a very racially diverse high school that was largely filled with rap fans. I never felt it as racially divisive when we had lessons that intergrated rap music. Usually we’d get our choice of how to do these projects, and while most people chose rap I was perfectly free to set my oral report on Swedish fairy tales to a Ramones song. So this isn’t new. It isn’t divisive. It isn’t the sole province of poor schools. What was your complaint again? Oh yeah. The story is too upbeat. Like every other human interest story on Earth. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/24 "2003-06-03T15:54:36Z")
One more question, December: Do you consider School House Rock or Sesame Street or any of the other PBS type ‘educational’ programs worthwhile? Or is it just because this is ‘black’ culture that gives you a problem? I only ask because i remember some “experts” Sesame Street being criticized because it “didn’t follow the rules”…it had puppets and live actors interacting today (would confuse kids), had people of different races interacting(would be divisive) was experimental (bad). I think it been over 30 years now and still running strong…i wonder where all those experts are today? So December, is Sesame Street bad for our kids? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/25 "2003-06-03T16:01:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Rap and Hip Hop are not only bad role models, they’re bad music. > > - This approach is racially divisive. **December** , you strike me as the type who would have been saying this about rock and roll 40 years ago, and the blues 60 years ago (when it was called “race music”). These forms of music have one thing in common, but I won’t say it. Instead, I’ll just say that you sound like a 120-year-old man. > [@](#): > > - The method is untested; there’s no reason to think it will work. Yet, the article says this method is already being used “in Chicago and around the country” I guess we’d better stop trying new things, then. They might not work. > [@](#): > > - Inner city kids ought to be given the best possible eduction. Instead, they’re being used as guinea pigs. You’re not wrong. Unfortunately, a lot of inner-city education sucks and needs to be changed. [By the way, you go on to advocate experimenting with vouchers. I guess only certain kinds of experimentation are OK.] > [@](#): > > - Principal Fontanez-Phelan sounds more interested in what’s “innovative” than in what works. I think you’re assuming that because it’s innovative, it doesn’t work. You have no idea if it does or not. You’ve decided ahead of time that it can’t because it’s new and it involves something you’re biased against. It may be a lame failure, but hey, so is a lot of education. > [@](#): > > - Professor Duncan-Andrade shouldn’t be at UCLA teaching others how to teach. And you’re in a position to comment why? He’s a hell of a lot more qualified than you seem to be. > [@](#): > > - The reporter ought not to have written the article with such an upbeat tone. Upbeat tone? where? Fortunately, any potential upbeat-ness is nicely balanced out by your conviction that this is doomed. Why oh why won’t the world listen to **December**? Forgive them, Father, they know not what they do! > [@](#): > > - This whole business shows why school vouchers are essential. Too many of those running or influencing public schools have their heads up their ass. Which begs the question - do you run or influence a public school? 😃 In any case, if there were vouchers, most of these kids (in the inner city) would probably still be where they are). Popular music in school - what are they thinking? I’m glad nobody tried to use Frere Jacques to teach us a little French, or the ABC song, or the months of the year… damn, probably half of what we learned in those early grades was through song. Rhyming is very well-established mnemonic device. That’s why poets and songwriters use it, and it was/is used by everybody from Shakespeare to rappers for the same reason. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/26 "2003-06-03T16:10:22Z")
> [@](#): > > You may recall the notorious Tuskegee Project, where poor blacks were unknowingly used as subjects in a research project on syphilis. That was a horrible injustice. Using poor black kids as subjects of educational research is comparable IMHO. Wow. It’s only noon, but it’s gonna be tough finding anything dumber to scratch my head over. Let’s compare. If the Tuskegee project was a success, the victims ended up with syphillis. If it was a failure… I guess the failure was when they died. If this method, which is in fact different from what schools do now in only the tiniest of ways, succeeds, kids learn something. If it fails, they don’t, and we go back to other methods. > [@](#): > > _Forced_ to sit through Mozart?! Surely you mean _Privileged to sit through Mozart_. This really says it all, doesn’t it? If **December** likes it, everybody has to. If he doesn’t, it’s a horrible idea and we should all rise up against it. If they were using Mozart to teach, I doubt we’d be reading these stupid, stupid complaints. ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/27 "2003-06-03T16:24:23Z")
Wow, there seem to be a lot of people who really like rap music… Or then again, they just might like to disagree with **december** out of habit 😛 Come on, whenever **december** wrote highly debateable (read: screwed up nonsense) things, I’d jump on the bandwagon and criticize him for it. But is it really one of those instances or are you guys overreacting? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/28 "2003-06-03T16:31:02Z")
Well my beef is that every objection he has to this teaching practice is a lie. Which leaves us with one issue. One issue that starts with a big black “R”. And I think I know how **December** stands on this one issue. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/29 "2003-06-03T16:32:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Optihut \* > \*\*Wow, there seem to be a lot of people who really like rap music… Or then again, they just might like to disagree with **december** out of habit 😛 > > Come on, whenever **december** wrote highly debateable (read: screwed up nonsense) things, I’d jump on the bandwagon and criticize him for it. But is it really one of those instances or are you guys overreacting? \*\* His allegations are highly debatable, and so we are debating them. This is the purpose of the GD forum, is it not? And the only reason I have a habit of debating **december** is that he has a habit of posting assertions with which I vehemently disagree. I suspect the same is true of most other posters who tend to disagree with him. Nothing wrong with that, _per se_. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/30 "2003-06-03T16:41:16Z")
Amusingly, the quote parodied in the headline is from _As You Like It_, Not _Macbeth_. Perhaps if there had been more hip-hop in schools, the person who came up with the headline would know that. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/31 "2003-06-03T16:45:13Z")
Hey look, **december** , [somebody put your whole political philosophy to music!](http://www.barbneal.com/wav/marxbros/groucho/grouch61.wav) 639k .wav audio file ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/32 "2003-06-03T16:52:25Z")
What’s it say about me that I knew the song and the movie in question before I clicked on the link? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/33 "2003-06-03T17:00:37Z")
Que tu est Groucho, tendance Marxiste? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/34 "2003-06-03T17:02:09Z")
es ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/35 "2003-06-03T17:09:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\*It’s not only that I disapprove of the technique, it’s still _experimental_. Before educators use it widely, they ought to find out whether it works or not. \*\* The highly effective teaching songs in Sesame Street during the 1970s were in the style of the popular musical fashion of the time. So why is using today’s popular forms different? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/36 "2003-06-03T18:00:36Z")
Geez, **december,** need a little more racism in your OP? As others have pointed out, _Sesame Street_ and _Schoolhouse Rock_ shows that music can be used for educational purposes (and I’d add Tom Lehrer and _Happy Days_ to that list). This is merely a mild variation of the same idea; just because you have stereotypes of rap being gangsta hoodz an’ hos (1) doesn’t make it so, and (2) doesn’t make the idea invalid. In fact, I have an audio tape in the back of my closet somewhere with a little song I taped off the radio about a decade ago – “Shakespeare Rap,” which summarizes a half-dozen of Will Shakespeare’s plays through rap music. No gangstaz, no hos, no explicit lyrics(\*), just education in an entertaining medium. Now I’m tempted to dig that tape out of the closet and rip it to MP3… (\* = Okay, it’s got “damn” and “hell” in it, but that’s only because those are from the original Shakespeare. Check out the lyrics[here](http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Metro/2656/poetry/humour.html#rap), yo.) ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/37 "2003-06-03T18:25:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **I have a litany of complaints.** Yes, you do… very few of them are _reasonable_ complaints, however. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **Rap and Hip Hop are not only bad role models, they’re bad music.** Bad role models? You know all rap artists intimately, then? Well enough to criticize them all fairly? Please, do name some rap artists you know and your specific criticisms about their lives. _chirping crickets_ That’s what I thought. And bad music? Surely even you can concede that this is just a silly thing tosay, and not at all germane to whatever point you may be trying to make. While you and I may enjoy Mozart, not everyone does. Some people like rap… why not cater to that as well? It is a powerful modern cultural influence. Why not use to to our kids’ advantage? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **This approach is racially divisive.** Other posters have already pointed out the inaccuracy of this… I will further point out the blatant racism in the above statement. Rap is “black” music, so only black students will appreciate it? Try again… this is an ignorant statement, and a racist one. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **The method is untested; there’s no reason to think it will work. Yet, the article says this method is already being used “in Chicago and around the country” Inner city kids ought to be given the best possible eduction. Instead, they’re being used as guinea pigs.** “No Child Left Behind” is also highly experimental, and largely untested. So, for that matter, is the widespread use of school vouchers. Are you going to complain as vehemently about these experimental ideas in public education? _chirping crickets_ That’s what I thought. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **Principal Fontanez-Phelan sounds more interested in what’s “innovative” than in what works.** Ideas can be innovative and effective at the same time. I assume you have a cite showing that this _doesn’t_ work? Something showing test score changes from previous years, and comparative scores after this was implemented would be the thing, displaying an obvious trend to the negative, would be the thing you want. _chirping crickets_ That’s what I thought. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **Professor Duncan-Andrade shouldn’t be at UCLA teaching others how to teach.** Simply because you don’t like what he teaches? P’shaw. Who _should_ be teaching our future teachers, **december**? Laura Bush? Teacher education should be diverse and give teachers to explore many different avenues of teaching to find what works best for them and their students. It should _not_ be a lock-step single-methodology process. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **The reporter ought not to have written the article with such an upbeat tone.** Yes, because this is _such_ a horrible idea that there’s no possible good, or even remotely interesting, in it. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **This whole business shows why school vouchers are essential. Too many of those running or influencing public schools have their heads up their ass.** Cite? Photos would be good. _chirping crickets_ That’s what I thought. Again, simply because you don’t like the idea, everyone who does has their heads up their ass. **december** , this is you at your worst. Without a single cite to support your position (and one which takes the opposite one), you maintain that rap music in education is just a “bad idea.” Tell you what, kiddo… _prove it_. Put up or shut up. **OptiHut** , the OP is racist and utterly unsupported (possibly unsupportable). Each of its points are simply opinion, stated as fact. Frankly, it’s one of the worst examples I’ve seen of what **december** is infamous for. Had this been in the Pit I might cut him a break, but he chose to put this in GD, so he deserves everything he’s gotten so far and more. ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/38 "2003-06-03T18:45:42Z")
[hijack] december, this _is_ you at your worst. Time and time again I’ve given you the benefit of the doubt. Never again will I do so. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Optihut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/edb3f5/32.png) [@Optihut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Optihut)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/39 "2003-06-03T18:47:35Z")
**Avalonian** , in what regard is the OP ““School’s a stage, kids are playaz” - Can rap teach kids math, history & ‘MacBeth’?” racist? It’s a question I could answer with a clear “no, they cannot”. Yet, I get the impression that the OP isn’t what’s being discussed here, but rather that everyone is having too much fun picking on **december**. Usually I can relate, but just not this time 😛 > [@](#): > > Each of its points are simply opinion, stated as fact. **december’s** disclaimer, namely “ **I** have a litany of complaints.” makes it clear that he is voicing his opinion. This one is my opinion by the way: I think that if **december** had argued the other way around and made a comment about liking rap music, a lot of people would tear into him for that now. Not because they disagree, but because of past grudges. As for the comparison with sesame street: There is a difference between school and a TV show. Kids didn’t go to school one day to find Bibo there, instead of their teacher. Sesame street is a plus and kids have the option to watch it. With school, there is no such option. Therefore I would prefer a tried and tested method. All hip, cool, new, experimental stuff can be done as an additional offer, but not as a replacement. Sure, if it happens to work, fine, but what if it doesn’t? I sure don’t want to be the one to explain to kids that their education was screwed up, just because their principal back then was a big time fan of marshall mathers. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/40 "2003-06-03T19:00:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by holmes \* > One more question, December: > > Do you consider School House Rock or Sesame Street or any of the other PBS type ‘educational’ programs worthwhile? I have no idea what School House Rock is. My kids were early viewers of Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers in the late 60’s. They were great shows. However, I have noted that countrywide educational achievement did not imporve at the time Sesame Street became popular. In fact, it _began to fall_. So, I would judge that Sesame Street has not been effective educationally. > [@](#): > > Or is it just because this is ‘black’ culture that gives you a problem? The last thing my parents would have wanted me to learn in public school was Jewish immigrant culture. They could provide as much of that as they liked. They wanted the schools to teach me to be a part of America. So, yes, I am unhappy at the schools focusing on “black culture.” However, if the Rap approach really worked, I’d put aside those concerns. My greatest concern is that these children learn reading, writing, arithmetic, history, science, etc. I don’t think this Rap/Hip Hop program is the worst thing the public schools have done. Some of the experimental math was much more destructive. But, it’s just another dumb approach from people who favor novelty over effectiveness. **Eva Luna** , you ask what does work. I recommend [_No Excuses: Lessons from 21 High-Performing, High-Poverty Schools_](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0891950907/ref=pm_dp_ln_b_6/102-4263974-1326568?v=glance&s=books&vi=reviews) by Samuel Casey Carter. It “examines the common practices of twenty one principals of low-income schools who set the standard for high achievement. The lessons uncovered in these case-studies provide an invaluable resource for anyone interested in providing increased educational opportunities for low-income children.” **rjung** and **Avalonian** , your cry of racism is like being stuck in a box that limits your thinking. The methods described in Carter’s book _have actually worked_. But, you consider it unacceptible to criticize unproved methods, because they relate to black culture. I certainly don’t think the two of you are racists. However, your type of PC-blinkered thinking unfortunately limits the possible solutions to inner city educaiton problems. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358.md?page=3)