# "School's a stage, kids are playaz" - Can rap teach kids math, history & 'MacBeth'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358 "2003-06-03T13:42:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/101 "2003-06-05T07:06:28Z")
I just find it amusingly ironic that **december’s** been gleefully using “inner city” as a code word for “black,” while in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=187966) accusing people of using “neo-conservative” as a code word for “Jewish.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/102 "2003-06-05T11:07:27Z")
Awake\*\* december\*\*! Shake your booty into the 21st Century. Today is a brave new world of double speak where reality blends into fantasy and no one cares. Political Correctness is now king and truth is only a troublesome consideration. Are you naive? Did you not know that when you, a conservative, commented on a matter of racial inequities you would unlease a passel of snarling mindless robots whose only goal is to sing the party line.Sadly there is no party, there is only the phony self-satisfaction of being a part of a vogue, a fad, an any opinion that demostrates that they are hip, that they are part of the biologically chosen elite that knows what is best for all of us. Go **december** , bravely into the 21st Century, where\* robot mice and robot men run 'round in robot towns\*. (oh yes, in this place and time it is preferred that you “cite” rather than think, so here for the record is some latterday **Shakespeare** by **Eminiem**.) **bust it bust it** My favoite color is red, like the blood shed from Kurt Cobain’s head, when he shot himself dead Women all grabbin at my shishkabob Bought Lauryn Hill’s tape so her kids could starve (I can’t stand white people!) You thought I was ill and now I’m even more so Shit I got full blown AIDS and a sore throat I got a wardrobe with an orange robe {_wolf whistle_} I’m in the fourth row, signin autographs at your show (Yo can you sign this right here?) I just remembered that I’m absent minded Wait, I mean I’ve lost my mind, I can’t find it I’m freestylin every verse that I spit cause I don’t even remember the words to my shit (umm, one two) I told the doc I need a change in sickness and gave a girl herpes in exchange for syphilis Put my LP on your Christmas gift list You wanna get high, here bitch just sniff this [Chorus 8X: Eminem] + (Dina Rae) Cum on everybody (get down tonight) ```auto *Pretty neat, Huh?* :) ``` ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/103 "2003-06-05T13:22:28Z")
Some of you seem to be confused about using rap music in the classroom to teach a _subject_ as opposed to teaching the music itself. We are not there to teach rap music. A teacher doesn’t even have to bring a recording of rap music into the classroom to use rap as a teaching tool. We are not teaching rap; we are teaching English, history, math, etc. through the use of rap rhythms which have a cross-cultural appeal. Even in elementary school, multiplication tables have lent themselves almost naturally to a certain rhythm: Two times two is four. (clap) two times three is six. (clap), and so on. This is nothing new. Rap has been used in classrooms since approximately 1983. Using rap to teach does not mean that that is the only approach that you use and it doesn’t mean that you use it all year long. Certainly the teachers are trained! Not only do they have college degrees, but they are also required to continue their education and to participate in professional development. They also keep abreast of what’s new through their professional literature. My day-to-day classroom involvement took only about half of the time that I actually spent working as a teacher. There is another matter called “academic freedom.” Teachers have a lot of leeway for using their own creativity to draw out the creative thinking and comprehension of their students. I don’t think that the OP shows much of a real understanding of how schools are run. That is my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![blk1228](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@blk1228](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blk1228)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/104 "2003-06-05T14:32:06Z")
As one of the teachers who uses rap in my class and directed “Macbeth” at Kelvyn Park, it is fascinating to see that our production and methods are part of a “Great Debate”. It’s been very interesting to read then posts and I wanted to reply. First of all, Kelvyn Park is a 96% Hispanic HS and rap works just fine. I find the implication that rap will work only in a black school offensive. Most of the students who participated in the lessons that involved rap found it most instructional and enjoyed Shakespeare even more. While I agree that this “innovative method” needs to be studied even more, my colleagues and I are not “dumbing down our curriculum”. My students have read “Beowulf” and “The Canterbury Tales”, “Macbeth” and Frankenstein. Students at my school have been involved in National Poetry Slam contests for young adults. When teachers use pop culture, teenagers understand concepts on their level and then can jump to the next level. We are proud of our students and believe they can achieve all we expect of them. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/105 "2003-06-05T14:38:35Z")
Any chance the Kelvyn Park teachers would like to have their students participate in this debate and give us their views on the effectiveness of rap as a teaching technique, or on any other topic they feel is related? ---
**Author:** ![blk1228](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/dfb087/32.png) [@blk1228](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blk1228)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/106 "2003-06-05T14:45:02Z")
I’m sure they would be willing to do that. I’ll talk to them about it asap! Good idea. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/107 "2003-06-05T15:04:09Z")
I just want to know if **December** knowing what he now knows, has taken this knowledge to his favorite Conservative Columist or will he allow this “assumption” to continue to spread among his peers? ---
**Author:** ![williethebard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@williethebard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/williethebard)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/108 "2003-06-05T23:04:40Z")
PLOP! That is the sound of me pulling my head out of my a@# to answer the points made by “December” (and a fine example of onomatopoeia). Allow me to introduce myself…My name is Darren Tuggle and I am the teacher/ director that appears at the beginning and end of the surprisingly controversial article. I, unlike my esteemed colleagues who have responded prior to me, am far to short to actually reach the moral high ground… • Rap and Hip Hop are not only bad role models, they’re bad music. Saying that all rap music is bad is akin to saying that all conservatives are narrow minded fascists. It simply is not true. • This approach is racially divisive. As you have probably read in other responses from my colleagues from Kelvyn Park, we are a 90+% Hispanic school. I do not design my lessons based on the skin color or economic status of my students. Furthermore I do not “color code” literature. I am half Mexican & half Irish and, strangely enough, my favorite play is August Wilson’s Fences. • The method is untested; there’s no reason to think it will work. Yet, the article says this method is already being used “in Chicago and around the country” Actually, there is a reason to think that “the method” (sounds dangerous when you say it that way) will work…I have seen it work! Now, if rap were the only teaching technique that you used in the classroom, then you wouldn’t have time to develop great units like “Teaching Romantic Literature through Show Tunes” and “The Polka and Poe.” • Inner city kids ought to be given the best possible education. Instead, they’re being used as guinea pigs. All kids should be getting the best possible education. I do resent your accusation that I am using my kids as guinea pigs. I am actually helping them develop critical thinking skills so that they will not become sheep or cattle (if the shoe fits) in their adult lives. It seems that it is the fine folks that are constantly barraging them with standardized test that are the real Dr. Moreaus in this scenario. • Principal Fontanez-Phelan sounds more interested in what’s “innovative” than in what works. I will not bother to try to defend a principal who (gasp) tries to encourage her teachers to find innovative ways of reaching their students. I will point out that although beating your clothes on a rock “works”, I am awfully grateful to the innovative soul that invented the washer and dryer. • Professor Duncan-Andrade shouldn’t be at UCLA teaching others how to teach. I cannot speak to the good professor’s qualifications. I will say that he is incorrect on one major point. I am actually (sadly) more a product of the disco era. As it happens, most of my colleagues and I are “in tune” with our students because we have actually GOTTEN TO KNOW OUR STUDENTS! To us, they are not numbers, labels or political ammunition. They are the people who we work with, make sacrifices for, laugh with, and often spend most of our waking hours with. • The reporter ought not to have written the article with such an upbeat tone. I apologize for the reporter’s inappropriate tone. That is often the unfortunate side-effect of spending time with students who are engaged and invested in their own education. I am sure that the cynicism of the world eventually extinguished all the positive energy she felt absorbed from our students. Lucky for us, negative energy is as contagious as positive. • This whole business shows why school vouchers are essential. Too many of those running or influencing public schools have their heads up their ass. Actually, I think that it would be “their heads up their asses”. Don’t worry…maybe this will help: Gimme a beat!!! Subject-verb agreement is very rough Especially when you are talkin’ tough. But if you use this little rap You might just learn to do that crap! On a more serious note…I have an open door policy. If anyone would like to visit my classroom to see how their tax dollar is being spent, my students and I would welcome you. DT. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/109 "2003-06-05T23:10:47Z")
**williethebard,** welcome! Great feedback. Any chance you’ll show this thread to your students? I, for one, would love to hear their thoughts. Eva Luna, ETHS Class of '86 ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/110 "2003-06-06T00:06:24Z")
_applauds **williethebard** _ Excellent first post, sir! If I was there, I’d shake your hand. Getting your perspective is a nice surpirse… It’s so rare that we actually get to hear directly about the things we debate here. Welcome to the SDMB! I hope you enjoy it. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/111 "2003-06-06T00:12:25Z")
I would also like to welcome **williethebard** and **blk1228** to these boards, and thank you for your first hand input on the topic. You have done more to fight ignorance in your two posts (and thanks to 'old timer" **Frostillicus** as well) than all other posts combined. **december** has a lot to think about, and I hope your intelligent and informed views contribute to the opening of his mind. Come back often! ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/112 "2003-06-06T01:27:11Z")
Welcome to the Board, **williethebard**. As I already admitted, I made a number of wrong interpretations of what was actually going on. I apologize. I hope you will continue to post here. You have experience and insight that can be valuable to our discussions here. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by williethebard \* > Saying that all rap music is bad is akin to saying that all conservatives are narrow minded fascists. It simply is not true. I was raised on classical music, and later developed a love of show tunes and jazz. My impressoin of rap was that it was relatively lacking in musical quality. However, I seldom listen to rap music, so I’ll take your word that some of it is good. > [@](#): > > I do not design my lessons based on the skin color or economic status of my students. Of course not. My point was that the article said that the rap/hip-hop approach would be used in poor and urban school. To me, that sounded like it wouldn’t be used as much in white, suburban schools. > [@](#): > > strangely enough, my favorite play is August Wilson’s Fences. Not strange at all. I also loved that play. > [@](#): > > I have seen it work! Could you expand on how it has worked. ACcording to **Frostillicus** the \*Macbeth \*was great. Is rap or hip-hop used in math, history, other areas? How is it done? > [@](#): > > Now, if rap were the only teaching technique that you used in the classroom, then you wouldn’t have time to develop great units like “Teaching Romantic Literature through Show Tunes” and “The Polka and Poe.” I can’t tell if you’re serious or joking. Are there really such units? > [@](#): > > It seems that it is the fine folks that are constantly barraging them with standardized test that are the real Dr. Moreaus in this scenario. I don’t agree, but this is a separate debate. > [@](#): > > I will point out that although beating your clothes on a rock “works”, I am awfully grateful to the innovative soul that invented the washer and dryer. Fair enough. But, the computer people have a saying, “Pioneers get arrows,” by which they mean most innovations don’t work initially. > [@](#): > > On a more serious note…I have an open door policy. If anyone would like to visit my classroom to see how their tax dollar is being spent, my students and I would welcome you. I wished I lived nearby. I would gladly accept your offer. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/113 "2003-06-06T01:53:45Z")
Tuggle, you crack me up!!!😃 ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/114 "2003-06-07T14:02:13Z")
**December** , do you even understand journalism? The writer discovered an interesting and unusual technique in Chicago high schools and wrote about it, because people like reading about interesting and unusual stuff. It doesn’t mean that it’s some sort of widespread revolution replacing previous teaching techniques. It’s a new way of looking at things, augmenting traditional techniques. I understood that before the Chicago teachers came in (welcome y’all, and kudos to you for your teaching efforts and experimentation). Now, to other things: I was born in 1983, and it seems that I’m aware of Schoolhouse Rock. > [@](#): > > _originally posted by Eva Luna_ > “I’m Just a Bill” You mean: \*I’m an amendment to be Yes, an amendment to be And I’m hoping that they’ll ratify me There’s a lot of flag burners Who have got too much freedom I wanna make it legal For policemen To beat 'em 'Cause there’s limits to our liberties 'Least I hope and pray that there are 'Cause those liberal freaks go too far. Boy: [spoken] But why can’t we just make a law against flag burning? Amendment: [spoken] Because that law would be unconstitutional. But if we changed the Constitution… Boy: [spoken] Then we could make all sorts of crazy laws! Amendment: [spoken] Now you’re catching on! Boy: [spoken] But what if they say you’re not good enough to be in the Constitution? Amendment: Then I’ll destroy all opposition to me And I’ll make Ted Kennedy pay If he fights back I’ll say that he’s gay Big Fat Guy: [running up] Good news, Amendment! They ratified 'ya. You’re in the U.S. Constitution! Amendment: Oh, yeah! Door’s open, boys! [many bills and amendments run in, guns a-shooting and bombs a-flying]\* and: > [@](#): > > “Three Is a Magic Number” You mean: \*Maybe you can subtract it You can call it your lucky partner Maybe you can call it your adjective But odd as it may be Without my 1 and 2 where would there be My 3, Mase, Pos, and me: And that’s the Magic Number. Focus is formed by flaunts to the soul Souls who flaunt styles gain praises by pounds Common are speakers who are never scrolls Scrolls written daily creates a new sound Listeners listen 'cause this here is wisdom Wisdom of a Speaker, a Dove and a Plug Set aside a legal substance to feed 'em For now get 'em high off this dialect drug\* Now who says pop culture doesn’t teach you stuff? I’d also like to point out that I love Shakespeare, and first developed a love for Shakespeare when I was 13, after seeing Baz Luhrmann’s _Romeo + Juliet_. It wasn’t that I could relate to it, but just that that film made it so real, so exciting and so compelling. Luhrmann turned the themes and language into something a thirteen year old could understand, and that gave it power. That Juliet was roughly my age in the play helped too. If teachers can use hip-hop to give kids the same experience I had with R+J, then that’s a great thing, and it should be encouraged. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/115 "2003-06-07T14:38:25Z")
Just thought I’d add that while listening to a local college radio station in the car yesterday (Loyola’s, IIRC, 88.7 FM - they play some great stuff!) they were playing a snippet of an LL Cool J rap on the Constitution. Didn’t catch the title, though. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/116 "2003-06-07T14:40:22Z")
Oops, it wasn’t LL Cool J, I think it was Slick Rick. I’m no authority on this stuff; I leave that to my sister. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/117 "2003-06-07T16:26:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gex gex \* > It doesn’t mean that it’s some sort of widespread revolution replacing previous teaching techniques. But, the article said > [@](#): > > In Chicago and around the country, educators are using rap and hip-hop… > > Rap is expected to become even more common in schools in the coming decade, when districts around the country are expected to hire more than a million teachers in their 20s. That seemed to imply that the use of rap would be widespread. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/118 "2003-06-07T17:55:15Z")
Ummm, \*\*december, \*\* you’re leaving out the part about it not “replacing previous teaching techniques.” Have you seen any evidence that large numbers of teachers plan to use rap to replace other tried-and-true teaching techniques? ---
**Author:** ![HWFAPAC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@HWFAPAC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HWFAPAC)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/119 "2003-06-07T20:19:26Z")
I hope this goes through. I have been attepmting to post a message for 3 days now and nothing goes through. ---
**Author:** ![HWFAPAC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@HWFAPAC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HWFAPAC)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358/120 "2003-06-07T21:04:24Z")
My name is Arturo Zavala and I am a Kelvyn Park student. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/schools-a-stage-kids-are-playaz-can-rap-teach-kids-math-history-macbeth/179358.md?page=7)